The current situation is somewhat precedent setting I must admit, however this opens the door for further litigation if a Nic cram down occurs. Remember the APA is also bound to DFR east and west. I'm sure they are aware of what may happen if they bring our bar fight on to their banquet hall.

So what do you think carries more of a dfr risk for the apa, following an existing contract they inherit or modifying it to mAke the east minority happy?

P.S. Do you question the absurd amount of evidence the west has of the east and usapa ACTIVELY avoiding the Nic.?

Im sure the LOVE for the flow througs is equaly tangible. You know for a guy
Whos been at AA for just under two years, you sure toot your horn. I bet you voted for the 16 year contract at AE, just to get a back door in to AA..............E

Well, the belief among Eagle pilots is that they are universally hated by AA pilots. I elected to arrive with an open mind and found that to be untrue. I can say that since arriving, I've been treated with respect by virtually every AA pilot I've met since my arrival. I have yet to fly with an intolerable captain, although I'm sure sooner or later that will occur as the "5% rule" generally applies at all carriers, large and small. That applies to AA's training dept. which I found refreshingly good (I completd my new-hire training program within the "footprint" and needed no additional ground, sim or IOE).

I'm afraid you'll have to chalk up another faliure in your assumptions. :rolleyes:


I'm just as much an AA pilot as any other pilot and looked upon that way by 95%, unlike your perception of those on the west who are apparently beneath you as "bottom feeders". To add ANOTHER error in your multitude of erronous assumptions, the flow-thru agreement was in place PRIOR to the '97 16-year contract, so no pilot voted for or against it on that issue. As for that agreement, I did in fact vote against it (both times), but I couldn't care less what you think about that. Its ratification was ensured by a corrupt group that modified the parameters of the second vote to make sure it passed. Actually, by the time that contract matured, it was arguably a good one considering other regionals out there. I made as much money annually flying a plane with less then half the seats of some of your narrowbodies then your captains do today.

It's okay Little Boy Blew, I'm sympathetic to your situation.

Obviously, you needed the money ! ;)

You must have pranced around your high school going FRESHMAN have no rights, only seniors matter!! Student council should only be made up of seniors, because freshman have no rights.

Why should anyone younger than you be allowed to vote in the United States. Maybe next time a draft comes only someone your age and older should be allowed to be drafted.

You guys must understand, on the east, guys like blew balls are the majority. They cannot comprehend any other line of thought, no matter how crystal clear the evidence is.

Its very very very hard for people to ever admit they are wrong. People have killed thousands-millions just to avoid admitting they might be wrong.

Yup, and in the easts case they refuse to educate themselves, anything that goes against their views is immediatelly discarded, it really is a cultural issue back there. As an examPle, during the nicolau arbitration, the west pilots were given the actual transcripts of the hearings every day, on the east they thought the pilots couldn't handle it so they wrote an update every night. The update the east got was simple, "we won again today" was pretty much every single update they ever got, truly unbeleivable. Btw that very thought process continues today, with their leadership assuring them ultimate victory is right around the corner , truly sad

How many east pilots do you actually know? Personally?

Whoaa there ACE. Check your facts. The flow thru/chiny jets carrot were the Crown Jewels of the 97 AE 16 year contract. Negotiated by a certain HP and endorsed by RB the ALPO Prez during that period. No pension, no right to strike, and industry based indexing for pay.
I can see how YOU side with the west in our dispute. It appears that you have also benefited from a controversial arbitrated award. Tell me, wasn't G. Nicolau (our G Nicolau) the same arbitrator that gave YOU a winning lottery ticket? TWA furloughs in particular, have seen their furlough extended by at least two decades, while you enjoy being a 5th yr. pay, line holding AA flowthru on your first day in class. I can see how your cut from the same cloth as our western counterparts. I'm surprised that you never considered AW as a potential employer. Or perhaps no interview invite or worse? What say you?
As far as pay is concerned I will bow to your claim. The pay here at US east is pathetic. But its not how much you make, but what you do with your money that matters. Needless to say I've bought MANY beers for good friends at Delta, FedEx, and AA throughout the years. It seems my buddies are counting every penny. It must be tough getting by on $165,000/yr.
I do appreciate your concern for my economic health. I can assure you that I will survive. In your case, might have to sell that shiny Vett if that 1113c goes through.
Have a nice career ACE, I have no need to argue with one as eloquent and well INFORMED as yourself. Oh well back to lurking.
;)

Man, this merger is gonna be great!!!

My God man, How old are you, 17!!
I cant remember college much less High School? Sory I'm to old to remember. Besides WHATS YOUR POINT??????????

No Cacti. On the east WE cant understand YOUR line of thought!!

Whow must be a NEW number. Now thats how much I wanna make on my next contract!!
:eek:

Jesus.......now he's telling ME about what happened at MY airline !!!

I can see now what cacti is talking about. You are completely INCORRECT..........well, it's not that you are incorrect, it's more you're a fan of what's known as a "strawman argument", i.e., in your version, you're altering facts, proclaiming that newly devised assertion as the real fact and then using the error as the foundation to proclaim me incorrect. The REAL fact is that the flow through known as Letter 3 in the AE pilots CBA and Supplement W in the APA Green Book was concocted and MEC (not pilot) ratified as an addition to the current AE CBA in MAY 1997. The new (at that time) 16-year contract was ratified by the membership 4 months later. We didn't even have a TA at the time Letter 3 became an addition to the then current CBA. Letter 3 was already a contract item and was not even subject to discussion at the fall roadshows for the new 16-year CBA. The 16Y contract had amendment rounds every 4 years that allowed alteration of up to 5 items via arbitration, so it acted in many ways like most contracts. As for pensions, what regional airline has had that.......or ever had that ?

The only regional to strike after that didn't fare so well, eh ?

Let's see how future regional airline strikes workout with the whipsaw model in effect at UAL, DAL and U (and soon AA/U) ?

Finally, considering where U east pilots have placed themselves (deliberately) on the compensation scale, you should be the LAST one criticizing ANYONE else's contract. :cool:

After this little gem of a post of yours, I think A LOT of pilots will side with the west, if you're representative of what the east has become. :eek:

Nope, George didn't give me any such ticket. My opportunity to flow to AA was via an agreement between two unions. What Nicolau did, was give additional flowthru slots to AE pilots since TWA pilots who originally didn't have flowback rights to AE were subsequently given those by APA/AMR agreement (at the bottom of the AA seniority list). EVERY single one of those pilots is STILL at AE. He also required that a certain number of those already with AA seniority numbers be required to make a declaration that they accept or reject their flowthru rights before they knew when they would actually make the transition. That's a bad disadvantage, because it could have been years before they flowed thru and arguably in a less desirable position due to age and advancement potential. Those who still are at Eagle with AA numbers get to choose to flow (or not) at the time they are offered a new-hire class when they can examine the risk/reward equation at the last minute. No such choice for those ordered by Nic to choose without that luxury.

This was at the demand of Eagle ALPA and AMR Eagle managment BTW, as once again no single Letter 3 pilot had any say in the matter. They both wanted that for different reason, ALPA being they are predominently mid-seniority pilots and elimination of 200 or so senior pilots improved their advancement and AMR Eagle because they wanted to divest Eagle and believed a reduction in pilot longevity expenses improved Eagle's sale chances to an outside party.

Again, blaming others for things they had no control over. Ironic considering you take no responsibility for choices made by you guys for things you DID have control over. any of those who flowed thru recently don't hold lines and not all are on 5th year scale. But hey......when you can divert issues and throw gas on a smoldering fire as a distraction from your own billigerent and erronous proclaimations, why not ?

Hypocrisy at it's finest, to boot.

Yes, we must be from the same cloth, what with both of us being "bottomfeeders", eh ?

Well, it seems as though you're running out of arguments, as you've resorted to baseless veiled insults. Never wanted to live in or try to commute to Phoenix, so no, AWA wasn't my cup of tea.

Jeez, based on your posts here, I can only image your level of obnoxiousness after you've tankered up on Blatz light. At any rate, I have no idea where you think my AA pay amounts to $165K/year or that I drive a corvette......perhaps you've been reading to many Mitchell Schnurman articles ?

Well, NOW you've finally said something that makes sense ! :D

Blah, blah, blah.. You are both verbose and incoherent. Typical traits of a seasoned politician trying to deflect blame. You would make a perfect ALPO rep!! So tell me Mr.16 yr. contract. Prior to the 97 AE CBA, how many AE pilots flowed to AA. Please try to keep your answer to less than 36 paragraphs.......... Never mind, an obvious impossibility. I will tell you 0. Why because prior to 97 there were no such provisions. Who cares!!! YOU got yours. Rationalize all you want. Most in the industry know what REALLY transpired.. I'm done here.
Oh, on a final note: GLASS HOUSES my friend, GLASS HOUSES...;)

nevermind.......

I think we're getting a better picture now. It seems there is an illness involved here. Apparently those afflicted with eastophrenia simply cannot tolerate any factual information that conflicts with their delusions. For the benefit of observers existing in present reality, I'll note the trigger for the first flowthru was the arrival of the first RJ in '98 as per Letter 3 which was 4 months prior to the 16-year CBA.

My apologies to the forum for being drawn into a pointless discussion by the delusional and incoherent.

Your apology is accepted. And the book rates for those RJs were on what CBA??

The apology was for everyone else. The payrates for the RJ's had nothing to do with Letter 3 and aren't even mentioned.

Your next hole is calling you. ;)

So who's on FIRST??
I rest my case...
Never mind. If YOU must have the last word, go at it.
I'm of to some REAL fun!!!
Yippi!!

Mitchell who?

New guy jumping in! Please be gentle...:rolleyes:

First of all, if the merger happens as described by the APA/USAIR CLA, I hope, for all of our sakes that we become a part of a new juggernaut that rises to the heights that American once occupied and that AWA and USAIR aspired to. 'Nuff about that but it is sincere.

Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger. With that in mind I see the following "positions" or points of argument as having the greatest merit.

1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.

2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.

3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".

4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....


There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.

Very interesting post. Thanks for participating. I agree 100% that nobody knows what any possible SLI would look like, and that it is futile to speculate---especially when this merger/acquisition hasn't even happened. But, I hope you don't mind if I respond to your (4) main points.

#1. APA will make all of the initial decisions? Why is USAPA completely discounted? Because their numbers are less? Does that make US pilots any less deserving or less entitled to any fair/equitable integration? If US acquires AA, there will only be single-carrier after an election is held. APA doesn't automatically become the combined carrier's bargaining agent.

#2. Agree 100%; I have a sense Nicolau is not going to be included. I'm not against HP pilots or for US pilots, I just don't see the agreement being included going forward.

#3. Fences? Well, yeah. 'Career expectations'? You've just outed yourself as an AA pilot---noone else uses that age-old, senseless cliche---except when trying to rationalize a lopsided, inequitable and destructive seniority integration like TWA/AA. BTW, just as a footnote, what would be the career expectations of pilots at a bankrupt carrier? Better or worse than pilots at a profitable one?

#4. Arbitration? Agree, it is the only way. (I know, Nicolau was arbitrated, too; but it was never successfully or full implimented---this is in no way meant to disadvantage HP pilots going forward). Here is the irony: You mentioned Bond/McCaskill in #2 and Arbitration in #4, yet AA/APA did everything in their power to deny TWA pilots any rights to neutral, binding
3rd-party arbitration during the SLI between TWA & AA in 2001, yet AA & APA are claiming that any integration between US & AA must be arbitrated. Also, the very reason Bond/McCaskill law exists is because of what AA & their unions did to TWA's 22,500 employees! Oh, the irony.

British Airways? What---are you a proponent of cabotage???:eek:

Do you know how the TWA SLI worked? You reference something that you heard happened, but fail to do the research. If the number of post you have on this forum is any indication to the amount of time you have, I suggest you do the research.

I realize you are a American Airlines fella by the way you are spelling out the way it is going to be for the rest. But now you are just another pilot of another bankrupt airline. I hope you are treated better than the way you treated the TWA folks. You know you are bankrupt and are under the direction of a judge don't you? You are at the mercy of others at this time.

If I as a native AA pilot hired before TWA lost 1000#'s how in the F_*& is that a staple job.

MY best man was a senior 76 driver F/O JFK. Could of held MD cappy but opted for the seniority in seat and the international flying. He WAS STAPLED!! served 4 years on furlough, and is now a junior MIA based pilot. YES I'm aware of how the AA/TWA deal evolved. Ask ALPO Nat how they fared as a result of their machinations.

[QUOTE=thebmer;1198621 Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....


There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts are the same. I believe the industry is bracketing for the future. 3 MEGA global alliances composed of US, European, Asian, and ME carriers. There are boots on the ground in Washington as we speak, attempting to modify the foreign ownership rules. I see big changes within 5 years. I view this potential AA/US merger as a strategic step for the OneWorld Alliance.

Capts. were slotted. F/Os stapled....

Not exactly. 150 of the 1300 TWA pilots (out of 2400 total) stapled to the bottom of AA's master list were MD-80/B-717 Captains, all '88 hires. All were furloughed after being stapled, from '04 until '08. Imagine you're a CA at a major and you're stapled below the bottom, new-hire probationary F/E at the combined carrier.

Wait...aren't you one of the East guys who believed a furloughed pilot should be able to come back and be senior to guy who had been an active Captain for more than 10 years? The only machinations I've seen come from USAPA.

AHH in case YOU missed it... My friend "was a senior 767 F/O JFK". Prior to the AA/TWA merger, he had been at TWA for 13 years....
Better read the FINE print. The devils in the details. Oh and try reading something other than AOL stuff. Your little CULT is about to be enlightened!!
So hows that dfr lawsuit against USAPA working out for ya??
Last I heard TWA pilots are just waiting for the ALPO dfr damage payout proceedings...

Thanks B. I stand corrected.

Hello All,

We have a huge opportunity to create a worthwhile airline that we can all take a great deal of pride in, but lets not forget about scope in this merger. :eek:

America West and East will be acting like children at the table while Daddy APA carves up SLI, but everyone needs to take a holistic approach to Scope as well as SLI.

It must be difficult being at American, having your union contract withering away, in bankruptcy, not knowing if a merger will happen and if so how will your life be affected. It must be very stressful.

The good news is that the McCaskill-Bond legislation will help to preserve a fair and honest integration of the pilot groups.

The irony is the legislation was passed to prevent a future rape of a pilot group like what John "Dancing Man" Darrah, Ed "Saks 5th Avenue"White and every APA member did to the TWA pilot group.

Best of luck AA pilots, I've walked in the shoes you made for me, and have been furloughed for 9 years this July.

Ex-TWA

Disclaimer: I was offered recall at AA a few years ago and bypassed due to my current job as an MD-11 F/O at UPS.

Funny how you left that out. How them shoes treating ya? ;)

Signed, an APA member who was never called, asked, or consulted with on how to hammer out an AA-TWA integration. But yeah, you're right - blame all of us, it sounds good.

"Fun coming out of my ears???" (according to your profile)

Nor did I mention that I was on the street for 6 months on unemployment and the first job I got after I was making $24K a year.

The only consoliation is when the 400 furloughs at American start this Sept, I won't be one of them, but all the red tails will...this will be the third time they are given pink slips. You may be smug and comfy with all this AA73, but karma of what goes around, is about to come around.

AA73, my story is not unique to my brethren at TWA, we were done an injustice by you and your pilot group. Your denial of that and the APA's attitude of , "why do we have to even listen to those guys anyways" attitude just shows the fabric of the APA especially when it comes to other pilot groups.

The APA had the opportunity to make an ally out of the TWA pilots and choose not to. they have a chance now to do the same, and we know after they removed TWA members from APA offices they volleyed the first shot of another bitter campaign against former TWA pilots. Now after the announcement of furloughs, we once again will endure the layoffs.

FF

I'm sure you kept the letter you wrote of your own free will expressing your disdain for the way the APA has treated us...email it to me....if not then, the fact that you paid regular dues, implies you supported and were fairly represented by the APA...period.

400 furloughs
 

flifast,

Can you let us know where you saw the 400 furloughs start this September or is Sep a random month that you made up?