Agreed. If this merger goes through without us having representation, we'd be out on our asses! I just hope that if we do vote in ALPA, that it'll be in the nick of time that they are able to setup shop and get the CBA going if or when a merger/buyout occurs.

 

You sound like one of those hopeless US Airways East pilots.

I could look at Midwest Express all day and your argument would still make no sense. I doubt we would outsource all of our flying out to you guys for years before we merge.

We're not TWA and they made the McCaskill-Bond so you guys couldn't do that again (yes, I've read it). We would legally just need one lawyer to represent our pilot group. Ask someone smart about it before you respond to that.

A senior line holder will still be a senior line holder. A reserve guy will still be a reserve guy. An illogical AA pilot will still be an illogical AA pilot. Please tell me you're a reserve FO and I'll be senior to you.

 

Vortexx, I would love to but C&R has strict rules about copying/pasting. Not sure that would be in anyone's best interest in today's environment... That said, it looks like the meeting (and the UAL TA) is converting lots of Yeses into Nos.

 

From a regional pilot, thank you for your service.

 

Pretty sure you missed that one by many miles.

 

A serious question deserves a thought out answer.

As another junior Blue guy... I'd be all for it, even with something close to a staple. (I won't argue over integration either. Although, a 5-7 year fence seems very logical - retirements will ramp up, there will be a lot of industry movement and 'everyone will be hurt/disappointed' a bit in the integration from the most senior AA pilot to the most 'senior' jB pilot. Junior will still be, and always be junior.) Having run the numbers, I would have a better career - make more money in the long run, have better health care for my family, a better funded retirement, access to a base that's closer to home, etc. etc.

Chances of a civil discussion on integration? Slim to none. In an actual integration? Years of bitterness. Probably. But, I think that everyone on all sides of any fence will have time to heal - and still have very lucrative careers.

Overall, I think that we are all hoping for the best at Blue. I don't think that anyone believes (Except the most blind juicer, selfish pilot only looking out for #1 in the short term, or BoB) that 'organic growth' is the future. Nor does anyone believe that the CEO of B6 isn't interested in running AA.

I, myself, am worried about my future... I have had multiple furloughs/bankruptcy in my career. And... I'm still what most would call a 'young person.' (Although, try explaining that to my grey hairs...) We are a good group overall... sure we have our 5%'ers. But, as a whole we like coming to work. We do our jobs very well... both from a safety standpoint and a 'customer service' aspect. As a group of 'angry pilots' - it's not so much... having spent years commuting to multiple bases all over the USA I've ridden in a lot of bitter cockpits at a lot of different carriers. I don't see that as much here. (And trust me, I can moan and whine like a old timer when I get going.) Please don't listen to all of that 'it's better than Mesa talk.' There is a whole generation of pilots coming up through the ranks that have cut their teeth with the Johnny O's, Uncle Hulas, Chuck C., Brian B. and every other lying cheating scumbag penny-pinching profiteering out for themselves and regional manager/CEO out there. We may not have been there at Continental in '83, United in '85, or Eastern in '89 - but we learned our craft under some pretty bad conditions and have our own special brand of scars and shared experiences. When the time comes, we will be there standing behind you to stand with you and stand up for what is right. Things like scope, pay, benefits, retirement... we all watched as the bean counters chipped away at the foundation and are here with you to hold up the house - for our careers and yours. Trust me, from the bottom looking up, you do learn what's important. (Even though there is a vocal minority of whiny Gen Y'ers and Millennials out here. Try to ignore them.)

I wouldn't mind being merged with the ranks of American Airlines. In a way I would welcome it. (Except for that one gate agent in REDACTED who can REDACTED my REDACTED and then flip it over and REDACTED it in his REDACTED till REDACTED comes out of every REDACTED hole in his body. Thanks again for costing me two days away from my family because you didn't want to do YOUR REDACTED JOB for two REDACTED minutes instead of chatting it up with your boyfriend you REDACTED pile of REDACTED. But, thanks to you, I go out of my way to make sure that I NEVER leave any commuters behind. So, even though you REDACTED me through your laziness and inaction, your behavior helped countless of other pilots get home to see their loved ones.)

Back on topic... I would like the protection of being a 'young person' - with years left in my career - and the satisfaction of being a pilot at a legacy carrier with the projected seniority growth that is forecast between now and 2030. The funny thing... even with a staple or integration with your group - I would upgrade roughly about the same time. Roughly about the same time that I would upgrade at B6. (Taking a 'snapshot' of today and projecting it into the future.)

Overall the 'junior' B6 pilots would probably look at a merger as 'winning the lottery.' As long as there are some job/career protections that come with the said merger. Treat us fairly, and do what's right... welcome us into your cockpits and you will be pleasantly surprised with what our group can bring to yours. (Minus that 5% of course. )

 

I haven't the slightest doubt you're correct about the quality and energy of the JetBlue pilots. We at AA are an aging bunch. I'm 50, been working at AA for 21 years, and in theory I could be an ultra-junior reserve narrowbody Captain at DFW which is my home - damned if I'll commute - and guys in my seniority range, 4,000's, are ready to fight. We've watched everything vanish. The upgrade, the lifestyle quality, the pay (obviously), every expectation in our careers seemingly vanished into magic PUP bucks into the pockets of management.

I'll put it this way - there are a lot of guys in their 50's with little to lose. Can't really start over anywhere else, and if it gets much worse, they'll simply pull the plug. Progression at AA, which has been SO stagnant, is ready to accelerate. Especially as the age 60 guys turn 65. Our last seniority shuffle moved me nearly 500 numbers in one year, the largest movement I've seen since my DOH.

I guess what I'm trying badly to say is there is a generational gap at AA. We are shockingly old as a group, and if AA remains reasonably intact, there will come a time in the next ten years when an enormous number of pilots are going to reach retirement age, and the ability of a guy who is early 30's to advance rapidly is there. Again, assuming AA as a fleet and operating entity survives in some fashion.

 

[QUOTE=Flyby1206;1239700]Im towards the bottom of the JB list, so most of us at my level would be happy with a DOH staple at AA..... A lot of CAs are worried about losing their seats, but with the average age being so young they would have plenty of years to re-coup that. Overall, I would say more are in favor of it than against it.

This comment should be considered at least asinine and possibly even reckless. If you are so anxious for a staple somewhere, staple yourself by applying to that company and leaving. Please don't speak on behalf of the JetBlue pilot group.

Look at the number of pilots on furlough at AA, as well as the Eagle pilots who have a seniority number. That puts the number one JB pilot below more than 1500 pilots that are not even on property at AA. Additionally, while AA's retirement numbers look good, the major numbers don't start for several years. Sounds like years of frustrating stagnation to the people at the bottom of their list.


If you were selling your house, would you immediately go to your bottom line or try to negotiate the best deal possible? Good grief, with this type of mindset, it’s no wonder the JetBlue pilot group is shooting for (but not even achieving) industry average wages, medical, etc. But, I guess I am in the 5%, the so-called chronically disgruntled.....

 

Just an example of where one carrier was represented and the other one was not:

"Two uncontested facts support the district court's finding that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation. First, no Jet America pilot was permitted to participate in ALPA negotiations with Alaska after the merger, despite requests to do so. Second, ALPA failed to follow its own merger policy for mergers with ALPA-represented groups. This policy would have required ALPA to conduct internal negotiations with Jet America pilots, and mediate and arbitrate if necessary, before presenting its position to management."

873 F.2d 213: Cress Bernard, Jet America Pilots, et al., Plaintiffs/appellees, v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, Afl-cio,defendant/appellant,andalaska Airlines, Inc., Defendant :: US Court of Appeals Cases :: Justia

 

You're missing the obvious of Bernard v. ALPA: representation of the Jet America pilots was never contested by ALPA. That's the key, and it's precisely why the APA was dismissed from the TWA DFR suit because there was nothing anywhere which indicated that the APA represented TWA. Hence, no DFR owed by APA to TWA. What you seem to be implying is that there is some sort of automatic representation of a non-unionized craft and class when they merge with a unionized craft and class. Absolutely not true, which means unless the APA were to somehow say they represent JBLU - which they surely won't - then Bernard v. ALPA is not on point for you. Only upon a petition to the NMB for Single Carrier Status and only upon a finding by the NMB that both groups are a single craft and class, then, and not before, will there be any chance that the APA would represent all pilots at the New American Airlines. That process could take a year, if not longer. In the meantime, what protections do the Jet Blue pilots have?

I'm not trying to scare you, but honestly, I can't believe you guys didn't vote in ALPA. Now you have to wait at least two years for another representation drive, file the petition, run the election, and then work on a collective bargaining agreement. Until then, you guys are little more than employees-at-will. The poster above who worried about the 1500 furloughees and Eagle pilots has reason to worry.