Thanks for the viewpoint aa73. Stay strong!

I ain't an AA guy. However, why is it always the assumption that the judge will impose the company's original term sheet? 1113c requires that both parties negotiate in good faith and that if the company's "last/best offer" is refused, the judge can take action on the original 1113c motion. If the judge imposes the term sheet, that is retaliatory since the entity in protection has already indicated that it is satisfied with the financial aspects of the TA.

IMO, a judge would be hard pressed to not impose the TA as the court ordered work agreement. While there is no direct precedent on the issue, there are many other examples that can be used to draw an analogy on how the judge should proceed within the guidlines of the US code.

That is my opinion which is worth 2 cents. But, the one good thing that could come from a court imposed work order is that the day the company exits BK, the pilots enter section six negotiations because they have no negotiated CBA under the definitions of the RLA.

Frats,
Lee

I don't think comparing our No vote should be lumped in with criticizing DAL pilots. There was good and bad with the DAL TA... it passed, and they now have a contract worth shooting for, in our case. Same with the UAL TA, if it is similar to DAL's.

Our No vote was really based on one thing: if we have to have a concessionary contract forced on us, we'd rather die standing on our feet than survive living on our knees.

Thanks for all the support.

All true, but the more mature and rational view you take is not as cool as insulting the DAL Pilot group.

Scoop

So if the APA strikes do we have the guts to back them up at the other airlines. I'm talking about taking a stand and making it clear that we support DAL+ contracts and will not allow the APA to lose to other carriers moving in. I know that's beyond the "rules" of the RLA which have been gutted by bankruptcy/threat of BK. Based on my opinion that only about 1/4 of people actually get what's going on and care on most issues, I think not. Anyway, I'm in, this stand is long overdue imho.

I wonder now that APA voted no. Could management give that 13.5 equity stake to the creditors committee for a stand-alone plan?

The TA was passed to the pilots and rejected the judge could still issue the term sheet. AMR would out source AA flying in code share and alliance agreements allowed in the original term sheet. Or is that impossible?

In honor of this week's event....may I present....


http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/y...erer/Brave.jpg

Congrats to the APA pilots who voted no. Had we voted no 8-10 years ago at USAIR, UAL (me), and DAL, the industry would probably not have descended into the death spiral that it has become.

I voted no every time at UAL. If we had torpedoed UAL 9 years ago, I would probably now be a 9 year FO or Captain at another major airline in the US, making far more money than I would be as a Captain at UAL right now. Unfortunately all the ALPA represented pilots caved in to the 1113 threats that our companies used, and these threats were backed up by the ALPA cronies.

It is my belief (also worth 2 cents) that you guys finally did the right thing. I only wish we had the same cajones 9 years ago.

Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code was put into the US bankruptcy code in 1983 to PROTECT the interests of union laborers in court. It is not a threat, it is there to protect you and your interests. By voting no, you are allowing the law to be followed. I wish we had done the same. In the end, after two "voluntary" pay cuts and then voluntarily giving up our pensions, we ended up far below the companies original term sheet.

LEEDX:
I agree with most of what you said except that the judge will go by the term sheet. The judge is required by 1113 to look at the haircut that he imposed on other creditors, and make sure that if he abrogates the union contract, that it is in line with those cuts. Are there any recent precedents with pilots in recent bankruptcy proceedings? Unfortunately no. None of the rest of us in the industry had the cajones to stay in the game, and see the other guys cards, We folded.

Well done to you, the pilots at American, and good luck.

The contrast in perspective over at the TWU is interesting:

TWU mechanics contract passed by only 48 votesStar-Telegram


It was definitely a squeaker.

According to vote totals posted to Transport Workers Union Local 565's website, the mechanics contract at American Airlines passed by only 48 votes.

The vote results were 4,776 in favor and 4,728 against. The store clerks vote passed by a wide margin with 858 voting in favor and 229 voting against.

The Dallas/Fort Worth mechanics base voted 85 percent against the contract while its stores group voted 91 percent in favor, TWU local 565 said.

TWU International representative Don Videtich said this was a difficult decision for the union members.

"We wouldn't have been surprised if it would have passed by more or if it would have lost by more," Videtich said in an interview on Wednesday.

Videtich said the mechanics contract includes 15 percent pay raises over the term of the deal and lowers the employee cost portions of health insurance as well as improves the 401(k) plan.

And while the deal is still concessionary, it was a better alternative than possibly having the bankruptcy judge throw out the mechanics existing contract. Bankruptcy judge Sean Lane is expected to rule on American's union contracts on August 15.

"What would have been worse is if we go to the judge and the judge abrogates the agreement and the company imposes other terms," Videtich said. "It's something that would have been worse that what we are dealing with."

I understand as many as 200 votes were thrown out/disqulified. Sounds to me something fishy is going on in this situation. Who knows,..........if the pilots vote were that close, ours may have miraculously passed by a 50.25% marging too, but maybe the vote count was strong enough against that whomever couldn't throw that many votes out to change the outcome, so it had to stand.

It's not that I don't trust certain people and entities, it's just that...........well, I don't trust them. :rolleyes:

What we know from the past is that capitulating to management's demands does not pay off for pilots- it does not make things better in the long run. In fact, cooperation from labor has produced only more aggressive tactics from management. Management will never "play fair" and they quickly overlook given concessions, returning countless times for another bite of the apple. However, even in the worst of bad times, oil companies have stood firm on their price- and what has management done? They have paid the asking price. I am grateful that a union has finally taken a stand, I know how hard it was to do so. Be warned- Parker is not different from Horton. Don't be sucked in to the East/ West saga smoke screen. Parker played both unions and got exactly what he wanted. This is a strategy that has worked so well that there is no doubt that he will use it again. Parker may smile and whisper in your ear while he is doing it, but make no mistake- his goals are the same as Horton's.

APA has been negotiating under Section 6 since July, 2006. Where's the advantage?

As you point out, they probably won't have a CBA. That opens a whole lot of doors in the merger/fragmentation department for "other" interests to exploit.:eek:

Hope it works out well for them.

Not likely. If Lane abrogates, AMR may impose changes in the contract it wants. Changes to language in anything involving mergers was not part of the 1113 or the term sheet. Additionally, we're still a recognized union and McCaskill-Bond is there. As far as fragmentation, that would likely be a controlled by someone other then the pilots. If pilots didn't go with airplanes, I think you'd see a mass exodus in a short period of time and thus significant loss of worth of the transferred asset during the transition. They could sell the MIA to Delta, but Delta would have to train a couple of thousand pilots within months or inherit an empty ghost town of a terminal and planes.

I think if we ever get to that point or AMR threatens such, it would start a race for the exits that might be uncontrollable. Besides, I think the most value both short and long-term is in a merger and not fragmentation and there is one guy out there (yes, a snake as well) that already has all of AA's labor lined up and once he's done looking over the books, very likely the best POR unless AMR can convince everyone they can move AA forward without the pilots on-board.

Remember, if that somehow occurs and we exit BK like that, it's no longer chapter 11, but section 6 and hopefully if the creditors shoot craps with that plan, they'll understand it will be a different game.

Little late but better then never. Thank You for sacking up and taking a stand! If pilots would just stick together and show more AA pilot balls we would ALL be in a better spot! The industry as whole will be better after this!

Some perspective -> It's not "late". The APA group has taken a more hardline position since 2006. They've gotten nothing for it. Future events at American may validate the benefit of their stance, but so far they don't have a gain they can point to and say, "Our AA pilot balls got us that!"

I hope they kick butt. I hope they get some healthy paybacks from their sacrifices and a pile of equity in the new company. They need something to show for their position.

Most here don't see this as a tanbark fight or believe this has anything to do with the size of our testicles. It's simply about achieving something competitively fair and equitable considering our situation and that of the competition.

So far, we don't believe we've been treated either fairly or equitably and thus the beat goes on....................

Very well said!

Wow. The "concern" from the Delta camp makes me all misty eyed. I can't help but notice how many of you guys keep asking about what the chances are of AA being broken up. I hope our continued existence isn't inconveniencing you or delaying your MIA bid. Perhaps I can fetch you a lobster bib to catch some of that drool?

You misunderstand. He isn't drooling over your job, he is trying to show you how to protect your own job. Emotional decisions based on a hatred of your management team ain't the way. Keep your contract, no matter how bad you think it is. Delta exited bankruptcy in April 2007 and now we are on our second post-bk contract. Keep your contract, keep your job, work to rebuild in the near future. Don't **** away your future just to give the finger to management.

I can't wait until AA emerges from Ch 11, merges with US, buys DL and finally gets the DPA off the ground.

Bottom line: AA's bankruptcy wasn't like the rest of ours. It certainly wasn't like US's. US really was bankrupt.

Just like the recent DL contract vote, it was up to the AA pilots to decide their fate. I think they made the right decision, but no matter what happens there will be people arguing about it for years to come. It's done and if we end up merging with AA I will be proud of their actions and proud to join their ranks.

If it is a merger, you will not be joining their ranks.

How so DCA A321 FO?

Dude, it is not "their ranks." They are not acquiring us.

I'm too old to be a dude. That would be my son.

We don't know who will be acquiring whom, but since AA has about 50% more cash than US, I think that makes "acquire" a nebulous term.

Just like US/AW, US/AA would most likely be a merger, not an acquisition.

Just..... sad.

In case your couldn't tell, that was a late night attempt at humor.

Yeah, sorry. I hadn't had enough coffee yet.

Lol. Why don't ya just throw World peace in there too. The odds of either are about as good as a politician without a personal agenda. :D

PS-I know you're joking. Hence the :D

Me personally, I don't want anything to do with any part of AMR. Their employees are already going through enough. I wish them the best. I personally haven't been through a BK, but I've heard the stories from guys I've flown with. It doesn't sound fun. :(

There you have it.

Not sure whether you are agreeing with Alfa or not, but time will tell who's right...

You mean 'Metta World Peace'?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oQIWdwc1Py.../mwp+elbow.jpg

How many can walk away?
 

If the term sheet gets imposed how many AA pilots have the ability to put in their notice?

Say for example 10% decide to leave, will AMR have enough pilots to even move the planes?

TC

No one will leave, without a pay out they will all stay. History at other carriers confirms this, besides they are going to need to furlough.

They are gearing up for recalls, also AMR managment numbers are worthless, they said 400 furlough as well as 2,000+ pilots needed due to the new FTDT. What is it then, you need to furlough or increase your pilot group by 25% due to rules and not taking account attrition and age 65 rule in a few months.

Is this true?

APA Hotline, Aug 15

JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENT’S MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR management’s application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Lane’s decision.

We regard AMR’s intent to reject our contract as an admission of failure—failure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airline’s future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilots’ sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to today’s ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

APA sent a blast this morning that stated the judge will rule this afternoon electronically, and that management will meet with APA early next week to discuss the implementation of the 1113. So it sounds like management knows how the judge will rule as of early this mornig!

Great question. I looked on the APA site and all I found was this:

posted on August 15, 2012 09:06
This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Wednesday, Aug. 15.
JUDGE TO RULE ON CONTRACT LATE THIS AFTERNOON: Judge Sean Lane has yet to issue his ruling regarding the rejection of our contract. Your APA leadership has been told that the judge will electronically file his ruling late this afternoon. Management has indicated that they will meet with APA early next week in order to discuss the implementation of the 1113 term sheet.
APA Phone Watch (817-302-2395) will be manned from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. Central for the remainder of this week should you have questions or concerns.
That’s it for now. Fly safe and maintain your professionalism. Thanks for checking this hotline.

APC225 posted it on the CAL thread... don't blame me, I am just spreading the rumor :)