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Question about AA instructors
Under current rules, if you are an active AA pilot, and you apply and are accepted for an instructor position (ground or otherwise), does your seniority and longevity continue to stay intact?
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Could you define your question after this?
We have non-pilot ground instructors. We use Sim-P's which (whom) are non-AA pilots. The saying used to be you had to be 72 years old or older to be a Sim-P. We only use Check Airmen for the checkrides in Sim's. For recurrent: 1 warm up sim with a Non-AA pilot Sim-P. Checkride with a AA check Airman. Long training. 1 week sim with Sim-P and last 1 week with a real AA check Airman. I think your real question is: If you become a check airman, does your seniority continue to accrue? Yes. I hope I answered your question. |
At my current airline, when you apply and accept a ground or sim instructor position, your seniority and longevity accrues. So if and when you go back to the line, your seniority is intact.
In other words, if I were hired/ merged or whatever way into American, I might want to go into the training dept since I live in Texas, and then, when I'm senior enough to hold DFW, go back to the line. |
So, you don't use AA pilots for ground and sim instructors? That stinks.
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As mentioned, we use them as check airman, both line and sim, and their seniority is high.
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I dont know how you would get hired as a line pilot first... many pilots still on the street. And to be a Line CK Airman you are pretty high up on the list. AA does hire off the street for GRND and SimP positions. Weither it gets you in the door for a line pilot.... well, let me know the answer on that 1.
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Originally Posted by essayons
(Post 1250608)
I dont know how you would get hired as a line pilot first... many pilots still on the street. And to be a Line CK Airman you are pretty high up on the list. AA does hire off the street for GRND and SimP positions. Weither it gets you in the door for a line pilot.... well, let me know the answer on that 1.
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Originally Posted by essayons
(Post 1250608)
I dont know how you would get hired as a line pilot first... many pilots still on the street. And to be a Line CK Airman you are pretty high up on the list. AA does hire off the street for GRND and SimP positions. Weither it gets you in the door for a line pilot.... well, let me know the answer on that 1.
No SIM-P or ground instructor could ever be hired by AA until all furloughees are recalled. 7576FO |
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 1249863)
Under current rules, if you are an active AA pilot, and you apply and are accepted for an instructor position (ground or otherwise), does your seniority and longevity continue to stay intact?
Well, technically no. When you become a check airman at American they write down you're seniority number on a little piece of paper and hide it in one of their mad dogs. If you can find that piece of paper you regain your seniority. As a bonus, you can gain 100 seniority numbers if you can walk around MIA for 5 hours without anyone asking you for directions. |
Originally Posted by 7576FO
(Post 1251702)
No SIM-P or ground instructor could ever be hired by AA until all furloughees are recalled.
7576FO |
At AA, Sim Pilots and ground school instructors are non line pilots. They may have never flown at an airline or even be pilots. Some are retired pilots of some kind - either military or commercial, and some are Boom operators or Loadmasters for example.
Check Airmen do the sim check rides and final training rides and give IOE. You have to be a Captain (line pilot on seniority list) to be an instructor (Check Airman) other than the Sim-Ps and ground school instructors. We have a very few instances where some furloughees have been hired as Sim Ps - very few. This is very different than many airlines. If you are an FO of any kind you do not get the opportunity no matter what your experience is. |
Originally Posted by dogpound
(Post 1253138)
At AA, Sim Pilots and ground school instructors are non line pilots. They may have never flown at an airline or even be pilots. Some are retired pilots of some kind - either military or commercial, and some are Boom operators or Loadmasters for example.
Check Airmen do the sim check rides and final training rides and give IOE. You have to be a Captain (line pilot on seniority list) to be an instructor (Check Airman) other than the Sim-Ps and ground school instructors. We have a very few instances where some furloughees have been hired as Sim Ps - very few. This is very different than many airlines. If you are an FO of any kind you do not get the opportunity no matter what your experience is. What's the logic behind that? Why would you hire somebody who has never flown the plane instead of hiring a current FO? |
AMR's culture unfortunately has been that it is a "Captain's" airline, and FO's are gear-up flunkies with no skills. IOW, you've got to be a CA to have real credibility.
This is just my impression as a 22 year FO. Another clue is the "Upgrade or out" rule which is fortunately starting to die a well-deserved death. Over the years, we'd have widebody FO's absolutely happy where they are, FORCED to upgrade to CA in a Fokker or S-80, and then end up as a junior reserve NB CA for a period of time. Often, they immediately re-bid back to their WB FO job after their lock-in expires. Two massive training cycles, ****ed-off pilots, big $$ wasted. Another chuckle-worthy rule is the WX conditions (or airport specific) mandating "the CA must make the landing, no exceptions", and you've got a new CA with 100 hours in type being forced to take a landing from an FO with 7,000 hours and who has been to that airport hundreds of times. |
^^^^^^^^ ForeverFO does not lie ^^^^^^^^^
AA has always had a "Captain" mentality since the DC-3 days. They love to claim they hire Captains but the truth is that, when you're an FO, you're just an FO. Examples: - All PAs are made by the Captain. That includes on taxi out, in the air, on the descent, and on taxi in. Doesn't matter whether he is PF or PM. The only PA made by the FO is approaching the gate, for folks to remain seated and for F/As to disarm doors (which, ironically, is made by the F/As at every other airline - for good reason, who wants the FO making a PA approaching the gate????) - Only the Captain is allowed to land the airplane with RVR less than 4000 or vis less than 1/4mile. - Only Captains are allowed to be Check Airmen. - Only Captains are allowed to start the engines. - Only Captains are allowed to turn on/off exterior lights, hit the sterile chime, and work the seat belt sign. I could go on and on, but you get the point. We have FOs here with thousands of hours of experience, most of who have been Captains previously, who are essentially prevented from acting like Captains in training. And frankly, most of our FOs are so beaten down by this mentality that they only do their job and no more. Sad situation. I will say that it has SLOWLY been changing, but we have a long way to go in catching up with most "modern 21st century" airlines. |
Captains making PAs while taxiing...who approved THAT at FAA?:confused:
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That would be AA's culture-friendly FAA POIs, who are as much ingrained in years of ancestral worship as AA is... ;)
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One would hope with these dinosaurs retiring that the culture will change. Culture, in theory, is all about the people. Once they are gone, hopefully it will change.
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Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 1253648)
That would be AA's culture-friendly FAA POIs, who are as much ingrained in years of ancestral worship as AA is... ;)
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Another chuckle-worthy rule is the WX conditions (or airport specific) mandating "the CA must make the landing, no exceptions", and you've got a new CA with 100 hours in type being forced to take a landing from an FO with 7,000 hours and who has been to that airport hundreds of times. |
It depends upon who you are flying with. The majority are fine. But those rules as described are inviolable. Ignore them, ding metal, get fired.
It HAS improved, though. When I was hired, some of those old 727 idiots were flying Captain Blighs. What's especially entertaining is that when the 727 retired, a lot of them flunked their upgrade into a glass airplane. They couldn't work even the basic FMC functions. VNAV, fuggetaboutit. Most of those are gone. What is left is generally fine, but the rules are the rules.... |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1254124)
In some parts of the world, the F/O flying with a captain with less than 1,000 in type as PIC is not allowed to touch the controls. Imagine being at a small base. Some F/O's don't touch the controls for 6 months at a time. Now that really sucks! 22 year F/O... holy $hit! That can't be great for one's ego. Damn... that really sucks. In many parts of the world a cadet finds their way into the left seat within 5 years after induction.
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AA Sim/Ground School Instructor
Does anyone have a POC for Sim/Ground School Instructors at AA?
Are they hiring? I am a furloughed AA pilot who is about to retire from the military. I have 727 FE and 737 FO experience. I would enjoy instructing at the flight academy. Thanks, Big Slick |
Originally Posted by B757200ER
(Post 1254117)
"Ancestral worship"? When I'm taxiing the jet, the last thing I want to do is try and make a PA...especially when there is a fully capable F/O not taxiing that can easily pick up the PA and say "Flight Attendants prepare for take-off"!
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Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 1253582)
^^^^^^^^ ForeverFO does not lie ^^^^^^^^^
AA has always had a "Captain" mentality since the DC-3 days. They love to claim they hire Captains but the truth is that, when you're an FO, you're just an FO. Examples: - All PAs are made by the Captain. That includes on taxi out, in the air, on the descent, and on taxi in. Doesn't matter whether he is PF or PM. The only PA made by the FO is approaching the gate, for folks to remain seated and for F/As to disarm doors (which, ironically, is made by the F/As at every other airline - for good reason, who wants the FO making a PA approaching the gate????) - Only the Captain is allowed to land the airplane with RVR less than 4000 or vis less than 1/4mile. - Only Captains are allowed to be Check Airmen. - Only Captains are allowed to start the engines. - Only Captains are allowed to turn on/off exterior lights, hit the sterile chime, and work the seat belt sign. I could go on and on, but you get the point. We have FOs here with thousands of hours of experience, most of who have been Captains previously, who are essentially prevented from acting like Captains in training. And frankly, most of our FOs are so beaten down by this mentality that they only do their job and no more. Sad situation. I will say that it has SLOWLY been changing, but we have a long way to go in catching up with most "modern 21st century" airlines. |
Forgot to mention. I usually offer the f/o the opportunity to make the PAs, other than the mandated "prepare for t/o or landing". Most turn me down. On the other hand when I offer to do the walk around, most say go ahead.
Back on topic, we have many f/o s who have check airman experience on the A320. AA would rather have an AA captain with no A320 experience as an instructor than hire very experienced, former A320 captains, that are now recalled to AA and sitting in the right seat. |
These anachronistic practices seem to be the antithesis of 6th generation CRM.
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Originally Posted by Big Slick
(Post 1255592)
Does anyone have a POC for Sim/Ground School Instructors at AA?
Are they hiring? I am a furloughed AA pilot who is about to retire from the military. I have 727 FE and 737 FO experience. I would enjoy instructing at the flight academy. Thanks, Big Slick |
Man, it sounds like the cockpit culture at AA blows. In addition to everything stated above, I've noticed things while on their jumpseat. From mile long checklists, to writing down fuel and times between every fix, to many really unnecessary tasks, I really hope that the US Airways training and cockpit procedures prevail after the merger. I'm surprised there's any situational awareness at all considering all the things they have to do in there.
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Originally Posted by lsl80
(Post 1256307)
AA73 a couple corrections. Landing 4000 RVR or 3/4 mile not 1/4 must be made by captain. Also, during a single engine taxi, the f/o may start an engine. But I have not done a SE taxi in a long time. Dont forget the walk around culture, cockpit setup and checklist reading all done by FO. The fo at AA is not a captain in training as was the case at my "aggressively safe" and "scd" former airline.
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Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 1256684)
Man, it sounds like the cockpit culture at AA blows. In addition to everything stated above, I've noticed things while on their jumpseat. From mile long checklists, to writing down fuel and times between every fix, to many really unnecessary tasks, I really hope that the US Airways training and cockpit procedures prevail after the merger. I'm surprised there's any situational awareness at all considering all the things they have to do in there.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said. We do have a lot of long checklists, and the CA does a lot of stuff he shouldn't have to do. Hopefully this will change with a merger. I will say that we have a highly skilled pilot group that still manages to fly safely amidst all of these antiquated procedures. 99.9% of the CAs actively set a very CRM-friendly cockpit atmosphere and recognize that most of our F/Os are highly experienced as well. |
Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 1256722)
The writing down of fuel between fixes is a VERY good thing. We've caught more than one severe fuel leak between 2 close fixes using this technique. Remember the A300's inaugural flight back in 1987 with the VP Flight, CA Ewell, as the captain? They caught a disastrous fuel leak between 2 close fixes thanks to this procedure. Almost had to ditch, but thanks to an EAL crew who told them to pull a fire handle, disaster was averted and they landed in Bermuda.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said. We do have a lot of long checklists, and the CA does a lot of stuff he shouldn't have to do. Hopefully this will change with a merger. I will say that we have a highly skilled pilot group that still manages to fly safely amidst all of these antiquated procedures. 99.9% of the CAs actively set a very CRM-friendly cockpit atmosphere and recognize that most of our F/Os arehighly experienced as well. |
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 1250316)
So, you don't use AA pilots for ground and sim instructors? That stinks.
15 years ago, when the only seat you were hired into was the back seat of the 727, they typically only hired former military flight engineers or retired pilots with big airplane systems experience to be ground school/sim instructors. The ground school and sim instructors share a master seniority list, which is completely different than the pilot seniority list, so, no, it doesn't work like many other airline out there. Besides, the company can pay the instructors a lot less (at least new instructors, anyway) to teach full-time than they could a line pilot. |
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