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Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1263555)
Passenger here -
Not happy much at all over all of this. Ticket agents, gate agents and the like are all getting beat up. |
Originally Posted by Airhoss
(Post 1263560)
So don't do business with a corporation who believes in legalized rape of it's employees. Problem solved.
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206
(Post 1263561)
Curious how this affects you as a passenger and your future travel plans with AA. Would you fly them again? Do you have frequent flier status on AA?
Yes I am an EXPLT. As an EXPLT AA has been very good to me and kept me in moving whenever normal IROPS happen. I don't live in a hub city so I have two main choices if I don't count WN. If the other carrier makes me an offer to switch and I may consider, but not sure I am at the point I would listen right now. |
Although most of us are sympathetic to the disruption of your individual plans, individual customers at this point are the casualties of an antiquated labor law system that allows management to freely gut career expectations with little recourse. I submit that a carrier that has openly declared warfare on its employees is unlikely to experience exemplary service and reliability as a result.
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Originally Posted by aewanabe
(Post 1263600)
Although most of us are sympathetic to the disruption of your individual plans, individual customers at this point are the casualties of an antiquated labor law system that allows management to freely gut career expectations with little recourse. I submit that a carrier that has openly declared warfare on its employees is unlikely to experience exemplary service and reliability as a result.
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Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 1261712)
They are about to implement "overfly shall be cancelled by underfly" policy. Gee, wonder how pilots will get around that? ;) My understanding is that NWA tried that and their pilots started "BOB" (Block Or Better) and management stopped it shortly thereafter.
Yes, you are correct... during the BOB days the NWA pilot group slowed daily ops to an absolute crawl. It seemed that 99.9% of the pilots performed BOB and NWA mgt changed its tune over night. The only way for this type of thing to work is to have the entire AA pilot group working together. |
Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 1261712)
They are about to implement "overfly shall be cancelled by underfly" policy. Gee, wonder how pilots will get around that? ;) My understanding is that NWA tried that and their pilots started "BOB" (Block Or Better) and management stopped it shortly thereafter.
Underfly? What the hell is Underfly? There shall be no such thing! |
Our local radio megastation WBAP is going ballistic right now with the talk show host reaming the pilots... again.
We knew this was going to happen. It's getting ugly. |
Time for ALL pilots to draw a line in the sand. Not just AA pilots but ALL other airlines as well. It is time to educate the general public that our professions downward spiral has/will trickle down to ALL other industries as well. All other organized labor groups, regardless of industry, are feeling the rape and demise of working agreements that have taken decades to achieve.
This struggle is not just about the AA pilots, its about ALL US LABOR!! As pilots WE have failed miserably in educating the masses how our struggle is in many ways the same struggle as teachers, firemen, police, auto industry workers, ALL pensioned employees, etc, etc. The general public will not sympathise with OUR cause unless we educate them on how parallel ours is to "their" cause. "Today its ME, tomorrow will be YOU" |
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
(Post 1263837)
Time for ALL pilots to draw a line in the sand. Not just AA pilots but ALL other airlines as well. It is time to educate the general public that our professions downward spiral has/will trickle down to ALL other industries as well. All other organized labor groups, regardless of industry, are feeling the rape and demise of working agreements that have taken decades to achieve.
This struggle is not just about the AA pilots, its about ALL US LABOR!! As pilots WE have failed miserably in educating the masses how our struggle is in many ways the same struggle as teachers, firemen, police, auto industry workers, ALL pensioned employees, etc, etc. The general public will not sympathise with OUR cause unless we educate them on how parallel ours is to "their" cause. "Today its ME, tomorrow will be YOU" |
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
(Post 1263837)
Time for ALL pilots to draw a line in the sand. Not just AA pilots but ALL other airlines as well. It is time to educate the general public that our professions downward spiral has/will trickle down to ALL other industries as well. All other organized labor groups, regardless of industry, are feeling the rape and demise of working agreements that have taken decades to achieve.
This struggle is not just about the AA pilots, its about ALL US LABOR!! As pilots WE have failed miserably in educating the masses how our struggle is in many ways the same struggle as teachers, firemen, police, auto industry workers, ALL pensioned employees, etc, etc. The general public will not sympathise with OUR cause unless we educate them on how parallel ours is to "their" cause. "Today its ME, tomorrow will be YOU" Pensioned employees...they don't exist anymore. Teachers, firemen, and police won't get the sympathy of the general public either. Have you seen a firemans pension?? Do you think it is sustainable with municipalities going bankrupt left and right. Pensions are a thing of the past, unsustainable in any financial situation, private industry or municiple government. I know it sucks, but it is the financial reality of people living too long. No company or government can afford to sustain a pension for people that live 30, 40, and in some cases 50 years after retirement. In my opinion you need to negotiate the highest 401k match and Profit Sharing possible in your next contract...lose the pension. Nobody can ever take that money away from you or use it as leverage against you once it is deposited in your personal retirement account. Pensions are a handicap that management will use to leverage the senior pilots against the junior pilots. Why give management that power. All of that being said about pensions, I do believe we are in a struggle between the income gap. That is where you need to spend the energy educating the general public. |
Originally Posted by Clear Right
(Post 1263851)
Please...really? You want sympathy from the general public. The general public thinks you work 15 days a month for more than a 6 figure salary.
Pensioned employees...they don't exist anymore. Teachers, firemen, and police won't get the sympathy of the general public either. Have you seen a firemans pension?? Do you think it is sustainable with municipalities going bankrupt left and right. Pensions are a thing of the past, unsustainable in any financial situation, private industry or municiple government. I know it sucks, but it is the financial reality of people living too long. No company or government can afford to sustain a pension for people that live 30, 40, and in some cases 50 years after retirement. In my opinion you need to negotiate the highest 401k match and Profit Sharing possible in your next contract...lose the pension. Nobody can ever take that money away from you or use it as leverage against you once it is deposited in your personal retirement account. Pensions are a handicap that management will use to leverage the senior pilots against the junior pilots. Why give management that power. All of that being said about pensions, I do believe we are in a struggle between the income gap. That is where you need to spend the energy educating the general public. |
Originally Posted by Clear Right
(Post 1263851)
Please...really? You want sympathy from the general public. The general public thinks you work 15 days a month for more than a 6 figure salary.
Pensioned employees...they don't exist anymore. Teachers, firemen, and police won't get the sympathy of the general public either. Have you seen a firemans pension?? Do you think it is sustainable with municipalities going bankrupt left and right. Pensions are a thing of the past, unsustainable in any financial situation, private industry or municiple government. I know it sucks, but it is the financial reality of people living too long. No company or government can afford to sustain a pension for people that live 30, 40, and in some cases 50 years after retirement. In my opinion you need to negotiate the highest 401k match and Profit Sharing possible in your next contract...lose the pension. Nobody can ever take that money away from you or use it as leverage against you once it is deposited in your personal retirement account. Pensions are a handicap that management will use to leverage the senior pilots against the junior pilots. Why give management that power. All of that being said about pensions, I do believe we are in a struggle between the income gap. That is where you need to spend the energy educating the general public. Perhaps that will improve though once your merger is announced ? Of course, if it does it will be because of others educating the public and not you. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by B757200ER
(Post 1261759)
Instead of DIRECT anywhere, just request "FLIGHT PLAN ROUTE"!;)
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Whatever Eagle...My comments were in regard to the Pensioned employees the post made reference to. I thought that was clear. I made no reference to AA or your fight. Although you are right this is an AMR thread, so my fault.
But I still wish you the best of luck, despite your comments towards me...now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum. I'll go back to the sidelines and cheer you on. |
Originally Posted by Clear Right
(Post 1263876)
Whatever Eagle...My comments were in regard to the Pensioned employees the post made reference to. I thought that was clear. I made no reference to AA or your fight. Although you are right this is an AMR thread, so my fault.
But I still wish you the best of luck, despite your comments towards me...now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum. I'll go back to the sidelines and cheer you on. In that case, my apologies. Perhaps you can clear up my confusion then when you stated, "teachers, fireman and police won't get the sympathy of the general public anymore EITHER". One could assume you referring to pilots and in particular the pilots of a certain airline, this being an airline pilots forum and an AA bankruptcy thread, no ? I became even more confused when you then stated, "in my opinion, you need to negotiate the highest 401(k) match and profit sharing possible in you next contract......lose the pension". Just what other carriers pilots are currently in the exact situation of losing their pensions and having a follow on plan not yet defined ? Very confused, eaglefly is. |
:cool:
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1263849)
Yesterday it was me. The day before it was United. The day before that it was USAir. Where were you then?
The problem with our society is that differences in opinion carry more weight than establishing common ground. Our masters know this, and they use it against us. |
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
(Post 1263905)
:cool:
Getting a$$ raped by management, who used the BK courts to decimate our CBA... Were was the rest of the industry then?? Oh I remember now, hoping that US Air would fold so THEY could benefit!! The problem with our society is that differences in opinion carry more weight than establishing common ground. Our masters know this, and they use it against us. To compare this to other labor is a bit of a stretch though. Most private labor groups have already been through this and private corporate labor unionism is at a very low percentage these days. The problem here is public labor unions. Sorry, but I hope the Chicago teachers get their asses handed to them. Our children in this country are getting a pathetic education, and it is a direct result of these groups. America is becoming stupid, and we all know the reason. As a taxpayer, I am not getting my money's worth there. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1263989)
Don't get me wrong. I think it would be wonderful for all pilot groups to stand up and say 'enough'. The problem is that we all have differing goals and objectives, and unfortunately there are some that are on top and some on the bottom at any given time. It will always be hard to get those on top to sacrifice themselves for "the Cause". How do you propose making that happen? While sympathetic to the AMR pilots' cause, I'm not gonna jump off a cliff to bolster their argument... sorry.. I just won't, and while few will admit this, many feel exactly the same way. I'd support you financially if you were part of my union.. but you chose the independent route. Maybe there will be some reconciliation between the AMR pilots and ALPA.. but time will tell. Maybe that safety in numbers thing...?
To compare this to other labor is a bit of a stretch though. Most private labor groups have already been through this and private corporate labor unionism is at a very low percentage these days. The problem here is public labor unions. Sorry, but I hope the Chicago teachers get their asses handed to them. Our children in this country are getting a pathetic education, and it is a direct result of these groups. America is becoming stupid, and we all know the reason. As a taxpayer, I am not getting my money's worth there. T doesn't speak for the majority of DAL folks. As you can see by his "expertise" he should be a school superindendant or even head of the department of Education, he has ALL the answers....:rolleyes: Spoken like a true unionist. Hey T I think the academy is lookin for a new Commandant.... |
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264158)
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. OK, I see you have answered that in posts 1 and 2. If you have an agreement, either with a client, or a boss or a company, do you not expect that contract to be honored? Do you pay your bills? AMR has not with respect to its pilots. |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264158)
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264158)
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. But all that aside, if you're having that many problems, perhaps it's time to reevaluate the viability of your travel situation instead of complaining on pilot web boards ? |
You know Mr. Bone it is hard to trust someone that shows up late to the party claiming not to be undercover but having to much inside info.
Your knowledge of airline codes and our lingo is puzzling. Maybe you are legit but it looks like your are attempting a fire fight at first glance. |
Originally Posted by XtremeF150
(Post 1264189)
You know Mr. Bone it is hard to trust someone that shows up late to the party claiming not to be undercover but having to much inside info.
Your knowledge of airline codes and our lingo is puzzling. Maybe you are legit but it looks like your are attempting a fire fight at first glance. Your health and the safe operation of your aircraft are the only things that count in these trying times. |
Originally Posted by Rolf
(Post 1261882)
For you lawyer types,
The burden of proof rests with the company to show a work slowdown is taking place? It seems that as long as the union isn't involved in any way, it would be hard to find them quilty of same. Best of luck, Rolf However, there comes a time when enough corruption's enough and it's time to start throwing the @$#%ing tea in the harbor. When's the first picketing event? |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264158)
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. Perhaps a documentary on the life of a "professional airline pilot" needs to air. If Jersey shore can get on the tube, perhaps the piloting profession might have a chance. We need to educate the public about the 16 hr duty days, the reduced rest overnights, the crash pads, the loss of vacation, pay, retirement, missed births, birth-days, anniversaries, X-mas, New years, kids ball games, poor diet, irregular bowel movements, DVTs, check rides, medicals, doctors notes for calling in sick, life expectancy, TSA harassment!! etc,etc,etc.... 99.9% of the flying public knows more about Snooky and lady gaga, than the job/lifestyle of those who run the front office, and so diligently perform their duty to guarantee their safety and all those on board.... |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1263989)
Don't get me wrong. I think it would be wonderful for all pilot groups to stand up and say 'enough'. The problem is that we all have differing goals and objectives, and unfortunately there are some that are on top and some on the bottom at any given time. It will always be hard to get those on top to sacrifice themselves for "the Cause". How do you propose making that happen? While sympathetic to the AMR pilots' cause, I'm not gonna jump off a cliff to bolster their argument... sorry.. I just won't, and while few will admit this, many feel exactly the same way. I'd support you financially if you were part of my union.. but you chose the independent route. Maybe there will be some reconciliation between the AMR pilots and ALPA.. but time will tell. Maybe that safety in numbers thing...?
To compare this to other labor is a bit of a stretch though. Most private labor groups have already been through this and private corporate labor unionism is at a very low percentage these days. The problem here is public labor unions. Sorry, but I hope the Chicago teachers get their asses handed to them. Our children in this country are getting a pathetic education, and it is a direct result of these groups. America is becoming stupid, and we all know the reason. As a taxpayer, I am not getting my money's worth there. I agree with a lot of your points T, but wrt to AMR and ALPA I can only chuckle. ALPA is getting what they deserve (insert sidenote: I used to be a VERY strong ALPA supporter), and I'd laugh my ass off if the DPA got voted in. Perhaps then Mr. Bruce York and his legal cronies would then wake up and realize that they actually have to give a rat's ass about the pilots they represent. Until then they can continue to lose pilot groups. Back to the original thread topic......... |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264158)
As a consumer what should I know?
Whatever is going on has impacted my travel. On the outbound I got within two hours of my destination and my return has been canceled. I prefer to fly when the cockpit is full of happy people. I don't have a 60 hour a month job nor do I have a great 401k matching program (pension- dont even know what that means. ) So help the unwashed understand why we should care. Airline employees have watched their professions go down the schitter while the traveling public has been able to fly cheaper than what it costs them in gas to drive to their destination. That last part is just plain WRONG. From the Northeast to FL should be no less than $300RT, to the West Coast $500RT, and to Europe a least a grand RT, but I digress..... You prefer to fly with happy pilots? Guess what? Your pilots would prefer to be happy, but they along with our profession have been raped by management with the help of the courts for about three decades now. Perhaps you can understand that in our own little world there comes a time when enough's enough. Think..........the movie Falling Down. You can only push people so far and this profession's been pushed enough. Hopefully the wheels start coming off the bus so we can perhaps reverse the course a little. You also still hold this perception of the airline piloting career that was true perhaps 30-40 years ago but is a complete fantasy even just 10 years ago much less today. So what should you do regarding your travel plans on AA? Perhaps the best thing you can do is avoid traveling on them during these trying times. Maybe that'll send a message to their management. |
Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER
(Post 1264317)
I agree with a lot of your points T, but wrt to AMR and ALPA I can only chuckle. ALPA is getting what they deserve (insert sidenote: I used to be a VERY strong ALPA supporter), and I'd laugh my ass off if the DPA got voted in. Perhaps then Mr. Bruce York and his legal cronies would then wake up and realize that they actually have to give a rat's ass about the pilots they represent. Until then they can continue to lose pilot groups.
Back to the original thread topic......... |
Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin
(Post 1264141)
T doesn't speak for the majority of DAL folks. As you can see by his "expertise" he should be a school superindendant or even head of the department of Education, he has ALL the answers....:rolleyes:
Spoken like a true unionist. Hey T I think the academy is lookin for a new Commandant.... |
My apologies if my questions are causing a flame. That was not my point. I will say though that using a word like "rape" is only used to scandalize, demonize and polarize.
Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER
(Post 1264321)
IF you are a member of the traveling public and NOT management, then allow me to just state that the cheap airfares (subsidized by employee wages.......of course, just like the high fuel bills that the airlines are/have been facing) have caused us to lose a lot of sympathy towards the flying public. Although, I sense that again IF you are part of the traveling public and not management, then most of your travels involve business and not the $199RT to FL.
Airline employees have watched their professions go down the schitter while the traveling public has been able to fly cheaper than what it costs them in gas to drive to their destination. That last part is just plain WRONG. From the Northeast to FL should be no less than $300RT, to the West Coast $500RT, and to Europe a least a grand RT, but I digress..... You prefer to fly with happy pilots? Guess what? Your pilots would prefer to be happy, but they along with our profession have been raped by management with the help of the courts for about three decades now. Perhaps you can understand that in our own little world there comes a time when enough's enough. Think..........the movie Falling Down. You can only push people so far and this profession's been pushed enough. Hopefully the wheels start coming off the bus so we can perhaps reverse the course a little. You also still hold this perception of the airline piloting career that was true perhaps 30-40 years ago but is a complete fantasy even just 10 years ago much less today. So what should you do regarding your travel plans on AA? Perhaps the best thing you can do is avoid traveling on them during these trying times. Maybe that'll send a message to their management. Furloughs suck, getting laid off sucks.
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
(Post 1264312)
Another "Perfect example" of how ignorant the flying public is. Most think that we press a "fly" and "land" button...
Perhaps a documentary on the life of a "professional airline pilot" needs to air. If Jersey shore can get on the tube, perhaps the piloting profession might have a chance. We need to educate the public about the 16 hr duty days, the reduced rest overnights, the crash pads, the loss of vacation, pay, retirement, missed births, birth-days, anniversaries, X-mas, New years, kids ball games, poor diet, irregular bowel movements, DVTs, check rides, medicals, doctors notes for calling in sick, life expectancy, TSA harassment!! etc,etc,etc.... 99.9% of the flying public knows more about Snooky and lady gaga, than the job/lifestyle of those who run the front office, and so diligently perform their duty to guarantee their safety and all those on board.... 80+ hour work weeks. Don't even start on the TSA harassment - at least the pilots got some concessions from TSA, the flying public - I am guilty as soon as I buy a ticket. Most everything you mentioned is similar to my world too. I would bet it is similar to most 150K/150 segment fliers also. This isn't "Up In the Air" and a girl in every port travel for many of us. This would actually be really interesting. Pilots are the least public, sans mechanics, of all of the airline employees that are public facing. I don't care about the bean counters and marketing folks. And really I don't want to chat with the pilots. There job is much more than a couple of button pushes.
Originally Posted by XtremeF150
(Post 1264189)
You know Mr. Bone it is hard to trust someone that shows up late to the party claiming not to be undercover but having to much inside info.
Your knowledge of airline codes and our lingo is puzzling. Maybe you are legit but it looks like your are attempting a fire fight at first glance. I asked an honest question. In previous threads several of you suggested that the pilots are not doing enough to educate the public. Someone suggested canceling their subscription to the Dallas paper. So I will ask again, as a consumer what should I know? |
At American, we always do our best to provide our customers with a smooth travel experience. You may have seen recent media reports about American's operational challenges or even experienced a service disruption yourself. Whatever the circumstance, I am truly sorry for any inconvenience to you. I also want to let you know what's going on and assure you that we stand ready to help. Prior to recent issues, American has been running an extremely good operation, with reliability measures at their best levels in many years. The recent delays are due to the increase in maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Our maintenance teams are responding appropriately to such reports, which may cause interruptions in our schedules. I know you will agree that nothing is more important than running a safe and reliable operation. Ensuring the safety of our customers is always our highest priority. We are taking several immediate steps to improve our service during this period. We are proactively reducing the rest of our September and October schedule by approximately one to two percent. These schedule adjustments will enable us to provide our customers with more reliable service while minimizing impact to travel plans. Additionally, we are increasing staffing of maintenance, reservations and airport personnel to offer you more flexible travel options. As always, our goal is to get you to your destination safely and on-time. Because you are a valued elite member, should you find that on your day of departure these issues will cause you to arrive more than one hour late at your final destination, all you have to do is ask and we'll do our best to arrange an alternative. We will seek out the best available reaccommodation, whether that is on American or on another carrier — or if you prefer, we will let you cancel your reservation and receive a refund. Your needs are our primary focus. Above all, I want to thank you for your business and your support. We do not take your loyalty for granted and are working hard on your behalf. Sincerely, http://www.aa.com/content/images/eSu...Sig_200x58.jpg Suzanne L. Rubin President AAdvantage® Loyalty Program |
Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264342)
This is what management just sent to out.
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Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264342)
This is what management just sent to out.
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Originally Posted by flyallnite
(Post 1264347)
Wow. So mgmt is now pressuring pilots who arrive at the aircraft late ( for whatever reason..delayed last leg etc...) to accept unairworthty aircraft into passenger service? That doesn't sound like a corporate culture that fosters safety. I can only hope that for the sake of the flying public that the pilots continue to do their jobs, even if it means vilification in the media.
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Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264354)
I didn't read the email that way. I read it as the pilots are focused on safety first.
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Originally Posted by jabone
(Post 1264338)
And really I don't want to chat with the pilots. There job is much more than a couple of button pushes.
Respect is not some one-way street that needs to be shown by employees to customers. Learn to show some and you may get better feedback. Come out demeaning the people you want answers from and I doubt you are going to get any objective information. There's much, much more to the airlines, our jobs, and our lives than 'knowing the lingo'. Unfortunately, many FF's think that riding in the cabin of the aircraft often qualifies them to make judgements about what's happening in front of the flight deck door. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'll leave you and your bias alone and go back to pushing buttons now. |
Originally Posted by LostInPA
(Post 1264360)
I had a very nice response typed out to address some of your concerns that you had posted earlier. Then, you posted the above.
Respect is not some one-way street that needs to be shown by employees to customers. Learn to show some and you may get better feedback. Come out demeaning the people you want answers from and I doubt you are going to get any objective information. There's much, much more to the airlines, our jobs, and our lives than 'knowing the lingo'. Unfortunately, many FF's think that riding in the cabin of the aircraft often qualifies them to make judgements about what's happening in front of the flight deck door. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'll leave you and your bias alone and go back to pushing buttons now. |
Originally Posted by detpilot
(Post 1264364)
I don't know if you quoted this incorrectly, but it sounds like he said our job is MORE than a couple of button pushes. ;)
Not really a fan of the 'pilots are the least public' part, either. I guess I can't figure out what the point was. |
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