7576FO

I felt this deserves it's own thread, not in with the new hire thread.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CanoePilot
Not if history holds true.
Furloughs most always get stapled.

Would like to hear from the AA guys how the closing of STL with former TWA is working out. Had a former TWA 1977 hire on my JS saying that he was losing his seat and going to 2001 hire seniority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainBigWood
Would like to hear from the AA guys how the closing of STL with former TWA is working out. Had a former TWA 1977 hire on my JS saying that he was losing his seat and going to 2001 hire seniority.



7576FO writes:
That is not true. A 1977 TWA hire would be 2,300-3,500 seniority. And he can hold captain at any base.

I had 835 TWA captains come in senior to me and keep their seats Captain seats until they retired form them or are still in them. An additional 100 are junior to me and are still captains. THey may have been displaced briefly for a year or two, but they are back in the captain seats. <the ones jr to me

In closing St Louis there is a just finished arbitration to see if there will be carved out special bid status in each bases protected for TWA captains to hole there captain seats. The decision form arbitrators will be mid June.

If not many many TWA captains can still hold their captain seats at most bases. Some not.

Currently there are 73 757/767 TWA captains in St Louis with seniority from 2380 to 5670 all senior to me.

I am 5900 and am a co-pilot.

Currently there are 126 St louis S80 Captains all senior to me ranging 3331- my seniority then captains all down to 7657 seniority.

There are right now 322 TWA captains left flying in St Louis.

There were 2,335 TWA pilots. After purchase of TWA 835 captains came in senior to me and have never flown co-pilot since and ALL of those 835 have retired form their seats or are still in them.

NAME ONE AIRLINE that after the merger continued to upgrade captains from co-pilot to captain on the purchased side?

To be fair. 835 TWA captains senior to me. 100 junior to me and then there were some A VERY FEW that were furloughed from the left seat and are waiting for their reinstatement to captain.


OF 2,335 TWA PILOTS NEARLY A THOUSAND KEPT CAPTAIN SEATS AND HAVE RETIRED OR ARE STILL IN THEM.

Most likely they will all receive protected captain bid status at all bases. I have no problem with that.


7576FO writes:
Now for the ugly truth.

50% of St Louis are not Union members. Yet my union is required to represent them in the arbitration to keep their captain seats.

Additionally 16 former TWA captains do not pay dues. There is some loophole that they found. They were named in our last union mailer.

My union dues going to represent 50% of a base that are non-members.



Sliceback writes:
Arbitrators will decide. No ruling yet.

Originally wrote "his version is worst case" but then checked the list. No truth in his statement if you recalled it correctly. Seventeen 1977 hires and they slot into 1990 hires using their current seniority numbers(32xx-34xx). Two to three of the 17 will be retired before STL is closed.

All 17 can hold MIA 767I Captain on reserve and about 3/4's can hold LGA 767I on reserve. N/b they can hold Captain in any base.
Last edited by Sliceback; Today at 04:15 AM. Reason: added seniority numbers





7576FO writes:

One more time. The TWA captains were assigned seniority numbers starting at 2000 seniority. In 2001-2003 many TWA Captains retired and from the left seat.

All TWA pilots were sent to be based in St Louis. No native AA captain could ever be based in St Louis. Native AA FO's could go to be based in St Louis, but they bid for schedules and vacation jr to all TWA pilots.

Of the 2,335 TWA pilots nearly a thousand are/were/remained/retired as Captains with American.

I never thought it was fair to place them all in St Louis.

But i'm constantly hearing how TWA was stapled. Morris Air was stapled. Reno Air was stapled.

In fact, no Reno Air captain got a reinstatement right to captain. The Reno Air pilots are all still co-pilots since Nov 15, 1998.
The Morris Air pilots all became captains again after 4 years at SWA.

CaptainBigWood

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Doesn't look like anything can be settled out of court for anybody.

Vortexxx

7576FO,

Please take some time to check your facts before you show your ignorance. Karma my friend is just around the corner. We are in BK, US is buying AA. We should just be thankful to still have a job! Sound about right?

7576FO

Everything I posted is factual from the AA/APA seniority list. I am an AA pilot.

Nowhere did I say anyone should be thankful to have a job.

For those that do not know when we look at our bases 3Xp's which is a list that shows bid/airplane status, it also shows the Non-APA members in Red.

I didn't count the numbers of red, but among STL CA's alone is is 40-50% non-members.

I'm guessing Vortexxx is not currently working for AA.

eaglefly

He also apparently believes that "karma" will take place apparently resulting in arbitrators retaliating against AA pilots as AA is supposedly broke with no future. I've found it's pointless to discuss the realities of this situation with those so far off the reservation. They're locked into their reality with no parole date set.......

Vortexxx

No, not so much. My point is 7576FO appears not to even know the bye laws of his own union.

Also, the Karma is how the US pilots will want to run the seniority list. You know, APA has already set the standard for a BK airline. AA BK was a legal move to kill debt and screw labor. TWA BK was a term imposed by AA in the terms of the merger. Both business moves, nothing move.

aa73

Vortexx:

1) USAir is not buying AA or its assets: both airlines are merging - unlike AA's asset acquisition of TWA. Two different scenarios.
2) AA will be the surviving carrier, even though it will survive thanks to the strength of the two combined airlines.
3) APA will take over from USAPA as the union for all AA/US pilots. USAir pilots will not "run the seniority list". Neither will AA pilots. That is what arbitration is for.
4) Nobody is screwing anybody: the SLI will be decided in arbitration. Exactly the way it should have been done with AA/TWA.

As much as you would love to see AA pilots get the shaft, you're too late to the party: we have been getting shafted for over 10 years now, thanks to the top talent management that has pretty much ruined a once-great airline.

Let's hope this merger ends up the way DL/NW did.

Sliceback

Parker has basically stated that AA is the prime mover in the merger.

flybywire44

You're using common sense in point 1, but that is not the "official" story. Bankruptcy was filed on the "legitimate grounds." These legitimate grounds nullify your point as arbitrators will aw knowledge files court documents.

CaptainBigWood

Very well said "aa73."
Three arbitrators working together to assure some balance.
NW/DL worked because the pilots were paid well to make it work.