USAPA/AOL whinefest thread
 

Okay. The east/west BS pollutes the board. How about we keep any post that has to do with the SLI food fight here so that others don't have to wade through it unless they want to, deal? WD, cacti, cactusmike?

This is a good idea.

USAPA/AOL whinefest thread
 

I'll get you started with this question. Really, this is the most important issue going forward. If the merger fails in court, what is it going to take for us to get a new (at least) industry standard contract?

Easy......go to United or Delta.

I, for one, am weary of this slugfest. Almost every discussion within the AA/US merger forum degrades down to west/east fighting amongst a few of you folks in this forum. It needs to be moved into its own dedicated sub-forum.

Excellent idea. And while we're at it, let's lock all other threads on the subject.

Great idea, Relay.

I'll play first. USAPA is a really, really bad idea that is past it's shelf life.

Or perhaps the three primary people who hijack every thread and turn it into an East vs West battle could just.. I don't know know, STOP? It's a free forum and free country and we all have the ability to post what we want but dang.. After a while it might be prudent to show some respect for others in this business that use these forums to ask questions and gather information about other companies.

Other than descents, have you ever known an airline pilot to use discretion?

So the Continental/United list came out and it went relative seniority. I heard that some of the United guys are going to vote out ALPA and make their own crappy union that will promise DOH but won't be successful in any way.

Continental didn't make out as good as America West on this one though. The furloughs weren't stapled.

It's official: Niccolau blew it.

Interesting. You come to a thread that is obviously just about the thing you are complaining about, then complain about it.

Cacti told me a long time ago that his objective is to "educate" guys. I KNOW we aren't really educating anyone. By this time everyone's mind is pretty much made up. But, I'm just not one to let half-truths and outright lies pass. If we keep it here, guys like you that don't like it can stay away. What's wrong with that?

Interesting thing about those threads so many complain about. You see how many views they get even after it is evident that people know what they are about? It's like Jerry Springer or Maury. People love a food fight.

Now, tomorrow on this thread I will be taking a polygraph to show I really wasn't a former Nazi and Maury will be here to do a paternity test to see if cacti really is WD's love child.:D

If this merger fails I don't believe we will get an industry standard contract.

Not sure how long you have been here, but are you familiar with the "Crew News" sessions Parker used to do? He would meet with crews in the training centers once a month to talk about things and they were video recorded and put on wings. I always thought they were a way to spread the company line. A consistent theme was that we couldn't generate the same revenue as the bigger carriers so we couldn't pay the same. (that ignored smaller carriers that pay more and profit margin) He said that is how AWA survived and that when US paid industry standard and times got tough it was in trouble, and that we would not go back to that.

So that is the company stance. They follow it too with the grievance process and the Gerry Glass/Al Hemingway school of labor relations. To get an industry standard contract we would have to force them, and what power do we have to do that? With this fractured group-none, IMHO.

Now the good news is that we have room to get a lot better than what we have. Here's what I think will have to happen and what we need to do.

-Let the Nic fight out to a final victory for one side or the other. It's too late for settlement and it isn't fought to the final answer the other side will fight on every front. Unfortunately I think that is 1-3 years. But, while we are doing that we could stop fighting each other on everything else. Agree to let it play out and put section 22 aside. Then tell Parker we are working together on every other section. We now have west guys on the NAC so we should be able to work together on the rest.
-When the fight is over we need to lay down our swords and we need a great leader to help us do that. To that end I agree with cactusmike that USAPA needs to go, at the least in name. I'd like to keep and independent union and not return to ALPA, but the name is tainted for west pilots(and many east). At the very least change the name and overhaul the C&BL.
-Accepted Parker's premise that we can't have the same as the big 3(in theory), and get a contract that closes the gap, but with a very short term, maybe 3 years. That way we can recover our sanity and prepare for a better one.
-Take the Kirby rates and increase them for the time that has passed and add a few %. Insist they apply to the E190. Then try to retain the best of east and west contracts like east scope and LTD, most of the rest of the west.
-Instead of back pay, insist on annual raises so the company will have an incentive to really negotiate the next contract.

Just one man's opinion.

You might be surprised, but I kind of agree, see post above.

Great idea . . . good luck.

And I agree with your post, Relay. Very well stated.

Hugs all around.

Now for some contention. How did Nicolau get it wrong if the arbitrators in the latest SLI used his methodology? Remember, the top slots went east and longevity was not an integral part of ALPA merger policy.

Remember the quote from Nicolau that was cited in the United SLI, "each case turns on its own facts". Since I really doubt the east/west issue will get a do over, the next arbitration we are looking at is US/AA. Look to the last two for a reasonable approximation of what we will see, relative seniority with some concessions to LOS. There should be no furloughs on either side at time of POR so it will be a little simpler to craft a SLI, I believe.

Part of ALPA merger policy was, however, that nobody gets a windfall at another's expense. I believe that rewarding the top 517 to USAir was a windfall at the AWA expense. Longevity matters, and how convenient that this is actually documented after the debacle of USAir/AWA. Nic blew it by not considering longevity, and would have likely prevented a travesty at the combined airline. To seat a 4 month pilot next to 17 year pilots is begging for trouble, and to consider furloughed pilots staple fodder is begging for more. Contracts were similar enough for financial condition not to be a factor and both companies were either viable or both companies were in trouble, depending on who you ask. Perhaps even more destructive was the lack of fences, meaningful fences. To quote from a recent result "Nor is it a myth that for many years mainline pilots, in general, have considered so-called “jumbo” jet aircraft flying as the pinnacle of career expectations. AWA pilots had NO such expectations. This should have made more of a difference in both the arbitrated list and with regard to fences, which amounted to 2 months.

A few AWA pilots attest that this was not a windfall for them, yet they fight so hard to keep it, because it's the right thing to do. :rolleyes:.

In the meantime, the majority of the group ousts ALPA, just because they are [content deleted]. :rolleyes:

Pilots eating pilots, and we march on. Watch what happens with the American merger, and how fast PHX is shut down, thus reflecting the value of it in the system. Then tell us again how much the AWA pilots deserved. It's already basically happened. Of course, that doesn't matter now. Does it? :rolleyes:

Well the reason we have M&B today is because of American so I wouldnt think too much about that. Mergers and SLI are going just as NIC did ours.

WD at AWA

Yep, and that was incorrect as seen by a more rational list of integration. You are getting closer by including relevant information. You are just interpreting it incorrectly. While DOH may be a thing of the past, longevity matters and should be factored into an integration, and I suspect that you would agree should the merger had been with a Virgin America.

The problem exists because pilots are by nature myopic and immediate problem solvers and selfish. Combine that with the fact that your seniority is not transportable and you get the uniqueness of our profession and an inherent problem which could be solved a number of ways other than the current solution.

..and here you go again, using a unique failure of integration when my point was that NIC blew it. The proof is in the fact that the next arbitration did not stick with the thought that one companies financials on a given day does not rule the roost, and that furloughed pilots indeed have a place in this world and are not pure staple fodder. "Days from liquidating," even if it were true--which it is not--equals VIABLE; meaning no relevancy. The context is that USAir decided to go through another BK, to effectively hammer creditors and labor which they failed to do the first time. For one pilot group to profit from this, when they themselves finally get pulled off of the compensation bottom rung, is ludicrous. For a federal mediator to get sucked into the same argument is borderline criminal. Again, the point is not to rehash the same arguments, but to point out that the original premise was wrong, the list integration was blown, and that ALPA realized it by changing policy, and the mediators realize it by changing their precedent to a new standard.

Fine, DOH is the kiss of death and relative seniority is the antithesis kiss of death. The mediator's job is to come up with a fair list. He blew it and gave one side a windfall at the other's expense--in several examples going both ways. If I were senior AWA, I would feel vindication that the top 517 spots should not have gone to East pilots--although this is probably the single least harmful provision given age differential. Were I the East, I would be taking this information to future hearings as validation that they are indeed serving a LUP, as "a federal mediator's ruling is powerful evidence......."

Admit you are wrong and move on. You've got the benefit of the award. Occupancy is 99% of the law. You've also gotten saved from a losing proposition in the desert. Deny it all you want, but AWA was going down to SWA--not USAir. SWA is getting pushed from PHL. To top it off, you get the benefit of the NIC--at least in theory--you get access to Europe and SA, you get somebody else to finally pull you out of the basement of compensation in contracts, and now you get access to a global airline with global reach airplanes, pay, and benefits. "Nor is it a myth that for many years mainline pilots, in general, have considered so-called “jumbo” jet aircraft flying as the pinnacle of career expectations." Quite a boon for the low rung carrier in the desert "hiring 30 per month". Yeah right.:rolleyes:

It's no secret that yours is the majority of the opinion on these and other anonymous boards. Indeed, binding arbitration should mean binding. However, in the specific arena of the piloting profession, where skills are not transportable across airlines and seniority the same, integrations have to be gotten right. This instance is unique, and the proof is that the fight has been ongoing for a record time, ALPA has been ousted, and the legal bills have been staggering. To explain that away as "binding is binding" is pure arrogance and gloating on the part of AWA, a matter of survival for USAir, and convenient "look the other way" for the rest of the industry.

A few rhetorical questions:

How long will PHX stick around post merger?

Why do you think that ALPA has had a change of heart regarding USAPA and APA, and actually supports the merger?

How will this integration departure from the precedent set by USAIR/AWA affect a ripe DFR case and LUP for the east west going forward?

Thank you. I think brakechatter sums it up pretty well. I will leave you with another arbitrators thoughts since you really don't agree with mine.

"A second issue, labelled "explosive" by Gill, concerned the manner in which approximately 400 Pan Am pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were to be integrated. This large number of furloughees resulted from Pan Am's switch from smaller planes to B747s, the largest wide-bodied aircraft, and Pan Am's poor financial health in the preceding few years. Gill stated that this furlough situation created"a head-on clash over the relative equities as between large numbers of National airmen hired between 1968 and 1978 and actively employed at the time of the merger, and large numbers of these Pan Am furloughees with earlier dates of hire who still have recall rights but who brought no active jobs to the merger." (Gill Op. at 8).
13
Gill's solution was to calculate the Pan Am furloughees' length of service at the time of their recall, and to slot them into the list by comparing their length of service with that of the active airmen at that time. (An exception was made for about 34 furloughed Pan Am pilots who had received notice of recall before January 19, 1980). He indicated a willingness, had the parties (or the "JANUS" group, representing the furloughees) submitted a proposal estimating the likely dates of recall of the furloughees and the likely length of service of the active pilots at those dates, to integrate the furloughees on that basis. However, no such proposal was forthcoming "[p]erhaps because of the difficulties in fashioning projections of that nature." Id. at 41. While noting that his solution to the furloughee problem might seem novel, Gill observed that
14
"the problem itself is novel--there has not been any previous merger case called to my attention where such massive numbers of furloughees, with such long periods of being off the property, were pitted against active airmen from the other airline who brought current jobs to the merger."

You are correct that longevity was (foolishly IMHO) taken out of the ALPA merger policy. But, no windfalls at the expense at others was in there. I agree with you about the windfall for the top east pilots, but leave out the one for the bottom half of the west. It's obvious.

The UAL/CAL SLI places furloughed pilots in with active pilots. I truly believe that had Nicolau done just what Brucia suggested that we wouldn't be here today.

That could very well be true, Relay. We have had this discussion before. I was just pointing out that ALPA merger policy did change a little bit but in the end, longevity just mattered about 35% in the rational for the UAL SLI. And note on other threads that relative seniority for just about everyone in a wide range of positions only changed about 1 to 2 percent, about the same as in the DAL SLI.

Bottom of the list is still bottom of the list, no matter how long you have been at a company. And if we had merged with jetBlue or even Virgin I would have expected relative seniority to be a factor. Naturally I would have stayed captain on the 757 so they would have blended below me:). (TIC)

Wow, just wow.

All of the "I'm sorrys, but I just can't understand..."

All of the opine assured as fact

Bragging about the utter failure of a whole 4 747s

Bragging about being only the 2nd worst contract in the industry, finally beating out an airline in its 2nd sham BK, after dragging the industry since inception

Trying to convince oneself that it is PHX which is the center of the universe

Just wow. 'Nuff said. Nic blew it. Case closed.

It seems that you dont have the basic ability to understand the difference between bragging and stating obvious facts. When you make statements like (no expectations of jumbos) I refuted that with we had them here at one point. The amount we had is not at all material.

Second you made claims that AWA had to be rescued from the celler and it read as though this knight in shinning armor what AAA. I pointed that AAA was in far worse shape than we were and even went further as to state that although our contact was poor, it was superior to that of usair. Is this bragging in your brain?

Nic blew nothing and in fact other SLI's have been done much in the same manner. Now obviously you dont like what he did and thats fine too as its only your opinion and has no bearing on the reality of the situation anyway.

Now that you have been correct twice if you care to say case closed here, that would be in your best interest.

Regards

WD at AWA

Not for all. Over half of the LCAL pilots lost seniority, especially those in the lower third of the LCAL list. For example an LCAL pilot who is at the 89th percentile on the new list lost 17 percent from his LCAL seniority. "Relative seniority" was never mentioned by the arbitrators in their conclusions according to one source. It will take over three years for this pilot to regain his "relative seniority" and may be longer if the new UAL decides to "shrink to profitability" or replace more mainline flying with code share and outsourcing. As usual the senior guys get the grease while the junior get the shaft.

WD's diatribe


"Terms like "expectation" really work for and against your argument. A bottom res first officer about to be furloughed should have what as an expectation in the event of a merger?"

Nobody else was about to be furloughed, absent Chp 7, we were running very, very short of pilots. And the fact is, we did not file Chp 7. AWA decided it was a good idea to merge with us, how do you know no one else was thinking the same exact thing? Someone that actually had some cash and didn't also need the financing like AWA? You don't know what else was out there, and it's a FACT that US never shutdown. We shouldn't have been penalized for that something THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

You guys are like a leukemia patient telling a melanoma patient how much better they were when they were both cured by the same medicine.


"Should this person say "whew thank GOD we are merging with a younger carrier now I can knock those guys out of the positions for which they had an EXPECTATION"?"

Absolutely not, but that is just what Nicolau did in reverse.


"LOS was something that was discussed with the EAST mec for purposes of pay and they unanimously rejected in favor of going to arbitration with their DOH or burst mentality."

Stop believing your own BS. We went to arbitration because we could not come up with a mutally acceptable SLI. Shocker. Who has in the last 20 years. A big part of that was YOUR SIDES insistence that NO furloughed pilot go ahead of Dave. How could our side agree to that?


"Now using Virgin is a poor choice due to a number of factors. First their age and aircraft count and second their pay. The smaller carriers pilot group can usually be reasoned with ala AMR and Reno air. The smaller carrier made far less and had no expectation of making what APA pilots were making. A jr capt with Reno may have to go sit in the right seat of and AA maddog but at a significant pay increase. In our case the smaller carrier was better paid, the east wanted all the seats plus a pay increase."

Oh sure, when it favors your argument you want to rule our smaller carriers. You guys wanted credit for A/C on order(even though we had more), but you wouldn't want to include that in a VA deal. Typical.

"The current situation exists because one side was totally against anything that did not begin and end with DOH. Now we are back to that instant gratification thing. Its extremely difficult to solve issues with people that want to dictate as opposed to working together to solve those issues."

Pure BS again. That's a vast oversimplification. There are many ways that would have been successful in our SLI, just not Nic's

"Here's why your argument is incorrect. AAA was going out of business plain and simple, they were furloughed extremely deep and had no exit plan for their bankruptcy. The financials were used here because it was the smaller company that were paying the trustee that kept AAA out of chapter 7 If AAA had gone ch 7 it would have presented major problems for Parker like other carriers getting pieces AAA that he was set on having. Keep it in CH11 merge and get it all. Now the merger between NWA and DAL, NWA had money and was not looking at liquidating, in fact they had a exit plan with DIP financing as did UAL with CAL. The financials of AAA were not at all pretty and absent this merger AAA would have liquidated. This is why Nic used them. Now here is that E word again, AAA had zero expectation of survival without AWA."

Again, you do not know that. I agree it didn't look good, but I have shown you your flawed financials before. US had more cash than AWA, but it was tied up by the ATSB. Any number of companies could have unlocked it and US had quite a bit of exit financing lined up. A lot of companies had an interest in keeping us running. Again, just because YOU never saw it doesn't mean that it wasn't out there. We will never know if US would have shut down, just as we will never know if AWA would have filed Chp 11, because IT NEVER HAPPENED. The merger changed everything, so "what would have happened" is unknown and cannot be accounted for without a crystal ball.



"Ok I have looked and looked and looked and I simply can not find this windfall you and the east speak of. I saw pilots within 3% of where they were on their respective lists so where exactly does this supposed windfall reside????? I mean if a pilot is within a few (single digit) percentage points of where they were prior to the award coming out then I will need some serious education on windfall definitions."

Then you aren't looking. A west pilot accelerating their upgrade by 6 years when an east pilot(that has already been waiting almost 2 decades) delays his 2(in addtion to the extra time on reserve, vactation etc), is not a windfall?


"I'm sorry but I am simply not following your logic here. AWA was going down to SWA?? Really?? I dont think so and the numbers at that time dont support your argument. SWA was killing USAir and they moved in on Philly to slice the juggler vein in the neck of usair. Then you went on to say someone pulled us from the basement in terms of compensation?? I hate to be the one to break this to you but the basement in terms of compensation was NOT AWA but rather usair and that fact remains to this day! The AWA contract though crap is far superior to that of usair. I further remember probably before you started flying that we had REAL jumbos on this property at one point, you know the 747 kind of jumbo"

SWA has retreated from PHL. PHX, not so much. 4 747s that put you in CHP 11? I don't think Doug would make that mistake again on "real widebodies". Our WB operation was, and is, one of the most profitable parts of the company.


"How long will PHX stick around post merger?

Very difficult to answer without first knowing the companies plans regarding the west coast. I can tell you that LAX is saturated thus getting more slots there is just not going to happen. This makes PHX look really good but again its really hard to say without knowing the companies plans."

It's the least profitable of our hubs.

"Why do you think that ALPA has had a change of heart regarding USAPA and APA, and actually supports the merger?

In what context? I have no idea what you are talking about or where it is you are trying to go with this."

Ray Charles, Helen Keller and Stevie Wonder can all see that the way SLI are now handled are because of the Nicolau disaster.

"How will this integration departure from the precedent set by USAIR/AWA affect a ripe DFR case and LUP for the east west going forward?
Well I think you are trying to ask what next but its very strangely worded. The question that first must be asked is what constitutes a ripe claim? Ripeness is though many here in the west feel cheated had not occurred. The threshold of harm would begin with a new CBA OR the negotiating of a CBA that clearly outlines usapa's intent. Usapa clearly intended to collect the gains of a new agreement and at the same time ignore the provision within the arbitration award. Usapa's claim is that the mou does not constitute a new collective agreement yet it has all the sections covered like compensation, scheduling, scope etc. The case before Silver is now ripe and unless usapa can show a legitimate union purpose this thing should be over very soon.

WD at AWA"


The 9th said one issue with ripeness is that it cannot be contingent on other events. I think Silver may wish she hadn't gone so far out on a limb on this one. She didn't see the DOJ action coming either, and thought her late court date would make it a moot point.Oops.

*yawn*



:D

USAPA/AOL whinefest thread
 

I do applaud you guys for keeping it on this thread. Thx!

Well, we don't have a commitment from cacti, and he is all about edumicating you guys.;)

Thanks for not coming to a thread that is obviously about whining, then whining about it like some have.

Look, you are only a captain today thru theft and no other reason. Usapa has helped you steal that with which you failed to get in arbitration. Now you can call it diatribe, rant or what ever makes you feel good about the east's actions. Phx may well be the worst performer but when you examine the desire to leap across the pacific tell me just how well that will be done from Philly or CLT??:rolleyes:

Now all those great names you mentioned can also see that LAX is saturated so getting slots there is not going to happen so whats left? Im sorry relay I couldn't hear you did you say PHOENIX???

WD at AWA

This is where you really come off the tracks. There is no theft, period. We are operating under the provisions of the transition agreement-SEPARATE OPERATIONS. USAPA was unsuccessful in achieving a DOH SLI. Now if you said some attempted to steal, well that you be your opinion, but as of today there is no theft.

I was first a captain for this airline in 1992. I am in the seat and base I held in 2001 and I was in it before USAPA was elected. You guys just want the Nicolau aided theft of MY seat.

I think PHX will play a role in the new AA, if we merge. But I don't see the expansion of it. I think we can grow the Pacific out of the west coast and many of the current connections made in PHX can be done better in DFW. Right now PHX is our only hub were mainline is bigger than regional. I see that flip flopping. I hope I'm wrong. I hope PHX grows tremendously and you all stay in the sand box of hell. I certainly don't want it.

So outside of a merger, at what point are we getting off separate ops and finally getting higher pay, work rules, and vacation?:eek: I don't understand the benefit of being the lowest paid captains just to win the seniority.

You are trying to apply logic and logic left this fight a looong time ago. It is all about being right/winning now. On both sides.

I wish I had an answer for you. Years ago I thought there had to be one, that a group of supposedly intelligent people wouldn't continue this battle. I was wrong. That realization came from being a moderator on a west founded web board.

I appreciate your honesty. It's like the old quote.. it's better to be happy than right. And here both sides desperately want to be right.

I flew with an interesting captain once. Psychology major in college. I always felt like he was trying to get in my head. Anyway, one day he said "people would rather die than be wrong." I though he was full of it. After watching this debacle for 8 years I think he was right all along.

I wish I had a solution.

Here let me help you cause you've been a bit on the slow side here lately. When you go into a store you agree to pay for your items. When you decide that you are not going to honor that agreement and then take the items its called THEFT!! There really is no reason to ague here relay as you can not win this one.

Now regarding the business aspect of PHX and how it all plays out will be a matter for senior management. Regarding being locked in PHX I doubt it, usapa will get its anus handed it to them this time around and I am betting that most of the west first officers will be headed your way to take up their capt slots. Did you know that most of them will be senior to you when this is done?? I hope you don't mind reserve.

WD at AWA

DO YOU HAVE A JCBA? IF NOT, NEGOTIATE A JCBA. SEPARATE OPS UNTIL YOU HAVE A JCBA.

DO YOU HAVE A JCBA? IF NOT, NEGOTIATE A JCBA. SEPARATE OPS UNTIL YOU HAVE A JCBA.

DO YOU HAVE A JCBA? IF NOT, NEGOTIATE A JCBA. SEPARATE OPS UNTIL YOU HAVE A JCBA.

DO YOU HAVE A JCBA? IF NOT, NEGOTIATE A JCBA. SEPARATE OPS UNTIL YOU HAVE A JCBA.

I've already won this one. Actually most west F/Os were junior to me on the Nic, but thanks for pointing out the windfall again.

THEFT? Are East pilots flying West metal? Kirby stated West flying 30% of former East routes. Go easy on the booze Whiskey.

Not if you were hired in 86 they are not. Go back and look at the ONLY RECOGNIZED seniority and I am certain that once again you are not correct. No longer need you for jcba just need case over with doj and we have a MOU which as you know is a CBA, GAME OVER its rest6 of your career on res for you buddy.

WD at AWA

How you been woody? I see you are up to you old tricks of insulting people you dont know. Didnt that mouth of yours almost land you in jail and out of a job? ALPA bailed you out though huh?

WD at AWA