|
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1757160)
Sure. Ask the APA general council, or counsel (i.e. the APA lawyers) to deny that they expressed that legal opinion before the BOD. (:D regardless of how one spells "council" you know who it is.)
Or just implicitly assume that they didn't based on a BOD member's inability to transcribe what he heard into a perfectly spelled account. Anyhoo, that's APA's opinion. It's mine too, so Im not disputing them, just chuckling more or less. We'll have to wait to hear the opinions of those who count though. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1757184)
I seem to come to similar conclusions about those who espouse their supposed expertise on that award, then refer to him as Nicolai. I can't help but scratch my head and wonder how much they really know.
Anyhoo, that's APA's opinion. It's mine too, so Im not disputing them, just chuckling more or less. We'll have to wait to hear the opinions of those who count though. I expect the West will be offered a merger committee pursuant to the Protocol Agreement. The 9th appeal will be dismissed with prejudice at AOL's request, and the Nic will remain absent from the employment data and thus excluded from the status quo. Or the West can refuse to participate and continue to pursue their lawsuits, and continue Liberty Tie sales. |
Must be nice having a crystal ball..
|
Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr
(Post 1756650)
If I may. None at all. It would only happen if it could be proven frivolous. That won't happen as Judges have already found DFR, BUT not ripe. The DFR is "in process", ie nothing is settled legally. If it had been found frivolous the East could sue for cost and damages. As it is, each side are responsible for their own legal fees and cost.
It sure is quiet around here. I go away a couple of months and everyone stops posting. What the hell is wrong with the USAPA? I did not think APA would allow USAPA on the property. Why did they agree to allow USAPA to continue? Clear as can be they are using you against yourselves. APA wants the best for their pilot group. What better way than to distract USAPA with East/West friction? Using your disagreeable behavior to their advantage you guys are doing them a huge favor. If the leadership of USAPA had any sense they would have disbursed that money to the West and played nice because the big show is not East/West. The big show is SLI against APA. You are going to lose. You are fragmented and still in conflict after all these years and it will hurt you in arbitration. APA will submit your group would still be on LOA93 and a bleak future as regional paid pilots "see they were still fighting after MOU" if not merging. I predicted a similar outcome to UAL/CAL. I think now it is going to be worse than that. APA is going to win big. You will be on the bottom looking up. |
Which poster showed up soon after Jerry Glass was brought on board by management?
|
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1763791)
Which poster showed up soon after Jerry Glass was brought on board by management?
|
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1763791)
Which poster showed up soon after Jerry Glass was brought on board by management?
I'm not saying that the APA couldn't go to the company and say "hey, we agree with you in principle" but we have a few items that need tweaking, you just might find common ground. Line in the sand union mentalities are simply not going to cut it and you WILL play into the company's hands. |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1763898)
I'm not saying that the APA couldn't go to the company and say "hey, we agree with you in principle" but we have a few items that need tweaking, you just might find common ground.
There's a difference between pay rates and pay raises. The rates in that proposal have all kinds of equalizers like insurance taxes and longer duration to spread out the cost (as well as neuter any chance of considering additional contract pay adjustments at DAL and UAL that the MOU does) which make it almost as cost neutral for management as the MOU provisions and they don't get scope. Going to have to be some SIGNIFICANT "tweaking" there. Oops ! I used the S word. :eek: Jerry doesn't like that word. :rolleyes: This is a seniority thread BTW. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1763909)
That's essentially what's occurring. Managements initial proposal is referred to as an "initial" proposal. Who did that ? Look, we know you couldn't care less about scope or any of the other issues potentially negatively impacting large segments of pilots and advocate pilots taking what they might get now, but the proposal is a scam as is.
There's a difference between pay rates and pay raises. The rates in that proposal have all kinds of equalizers like insurance taxes and longer duration to spread out the cost (as well as neuter any chance of considering additional contract pay adjustments at DAL and UAL that the MOU does) which make it almost as cost neutral for management as the MOU provisions and they don't get scope. Going to have to be some SIGNIFICANT "tweaking" there. Oops ! I used the S word. :eek: Jerry doesn't like that word. :rolleyes: This is a seniority thread BTW. |
Has anyone heard about changes to new hire pay effective Jan 1? Rumors are it was going up to $68/hr to compete with big D.
|
How can they do that without a contractural mechanism?
|
Originally Posted by Seventhreecapt
(Post 1740458)
Ok, I know this post will draw a lot of fire, but it should make for some interesting replies. Disclosure: I am a mid level narrow body capt at Legacy AA. I was hired between 88 and 92. My seniority is between 2400 and 4000 at LAA. Assumptions: 1. The Nic is not used in the model. My reasoning is a. I lack the knowledge the arbitrator used in fashioning the award. b. enough time has passed that the assumptions the award were based on are no longer valid. c. The two airlines are currently operating under 3 lists. 2. Date of hire is not used, only relative seniority. 3. Credit for Aircraft Orders is based on 50 percent of the order. (this number could be changed, but is a starting point. 4. Group 4 First officer slots are equivalent to group 2 Captain slots. This assumption was made by a previous arbitrator in a Legacy AA case. Further, in DFW the top 60 percent of the 777 FO list could be group 3 (not group 2, but group 3) captains. Group 1 Captains are feathered (slotted) with group 2 First officers. This is based not he fact that a new hire at L US can hold group 1 Captain, and based on the fact that the pay rate is roughly equivalent to Group 2 First officer. Base all ratios on current AAL staffing numbers, because after the transition to SOC, thats what the job opportunities will be based on. 5. No assumption was made about future aircraft retirements, this is moving target and would be difficult to predict the future. The same is applied to aircraft OPTIONS. 6. Specifically date of hire was not looked at due to the disparate hiring cycles of 3 airlines and wide swaths of seniority in each airline list.
So..lets begin.. These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number. Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50 Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption) East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. .. Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30.. Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80. Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX. Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent) Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts. Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots. Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50. Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots. With credit for orders where due. Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE. Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft. Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft. No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined. This proposal gives everyone credit for 1. What they own now and what they are flying now. 2. Their relative position on the seniority list 3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions. 4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire. This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input. No? I'm coming to work in any case because the West pilots will hate their lot in life and will not support any job action or strike. With 1,700 unified strike breakers its self evident. Welcome to the "New APA" contingent. |
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1757199)
Truthfully opinions in opposition to the Nicolau are of little relevance, as the Nicolau simply does not exist in any contract and can have no relevance at all apart from a contract. Ignorance, opposition, or ambivalence about the Nic have no impact on it. It was always and remains dead apart from a contract. The burden is on those who have a nostalgia for it, and who wish for it to someday be included in a contract.
I expect the West will be offered a merger committee pursuant to the Protocol Agreement. The 9th appeal will be dismissed with prejudice at AOL's request, and the Nic will remain absent from the employment data and thus excluded from the status quo. Or the West can refuse to participate and continue to pursue their lawsuits, and continue Liberty Tie sales. http://scholarlycommons.law.hofstra....&context=hlelj You may wish to do some reading by Ira Jaffe, one of our arbitrators in the SLI. Statutory law (and rulings thereof) can cause manifest disregard to establish growing cracks in the arbitration system thereby causing problems for their system of dispute resolution. In short, they become untrustworthy. This is a matter of external law ... "Second are claims of contractual breach, where external law is incorporated by agreement of the parties or where external law is cited by one or both parties as an aid for the interpretation and application of ambiguous contractual language. Arbitral use of external law as an aid to interpreting ambiguous contract language is little more than a specific application of the general contract law principle that,where two constructions of contract language exist, one lawful and the other unlawful, it is presumed that the parties intended the lawful course of action, and construction of the agreement consistent with law is favored. Incorporation of external law into the agreement evidences the parties' joint intention that the claimed violations of external law also violate the agreement and are to be adjudicated and en- forced through the grievance and arbitration procedures. Since the arbitrator is furthering the intent of the parties, there can be no serious objection to arbitral consideration of external law." Judge Silver ruled in Federal Courts that the West does not have participant status under McCaskill-Bond and if the Appeals Court supports this premise it could very well cut WIDE OPEN the SLI in the future award if it is disregarded by the PAB. I'm looking forward to the pilots here to continue to "slit their own throats" by simply disregarding the tried a true method and reasons that unions have promoted since the late 1800's. DOH with LOS adjustment. Period. Labor never learns. |
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1763791)
Which poster showed up soon after Jerry Glass was brought on board by management?
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
(Post 1763803)
I was thinking the same.
I just love rubbing your APA (and West) pilots nose's in it the crap when the East pilots tried to give you and yours insight into what you were getting into but NO......YOU AND YOURS GOT THIS. Well, now you got this!!! I will guarantee all the pilots here at the "New American" one thing: it's not because of Glass (or me, for that matter) that your "unity" is at stake. It's your illogical and over grand illusions that the APA pilots are SO MUCH BETTER than every other pilot in the world. And do you KNOW what the KEY DIVIDER IS?: SENIORITY and the LACK of any objective way pilot mergers (which will continue to occur in the future) are handled. Its your loss because the company doesn't car about seniority. And all the pilots have is their reasons for WHY they go in front of somebody else for promotion and furlough. You guys get on the web boards over at C&R and just think you can stick to the company. Talking about ME being "delusional" you guys got me beat my MILES. I'm looking forward to the day in the near future when the Company tells you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and your "unity" simply goes down the toilet. GET A GRIP ON REALITY. I'm bidding Captain on the 777 the first bid I can hold it and you can be sure I'll be enjoying my new found status as a New American SENIOR CAPTAIN then. Oh, and I'll continue to give YOU the what for enjoying my NEW position. You smarta$$ APA pilots "got this"! |
Originally Posted by Seventhreecapt
(Post 1740458)
Ok, I know this post will draw a lot of fire, but it should make for some interesting replies. Disclosure: I am a mid level narrow body capt at Legacy AA. I was hired between 88 and 92. My seniority is between 2400 and 4000 at LAA. Assumptions: 1. The Nic is not used in the model. My reasoning is a. I lack the knowledge the arbitrator used in fashioning the award. b. enough time has passed that the assumptions the award were based on are no longer valid. c. The two airlines are currently operating under 3 lists. 2. Date of hire is not used, only relative seniority. 3. Credit for Aircraft Orders is based on 50 percent of the order. (this number could be changed, but is a starting point. 4. Group 4 First officer slots are equivalent to group 2 Captain slots. This assumption was made by a previous arbitrator in a Legacy AA case. Further, in DFW the top 60 percent of the 777 FO list could be group 3 (not group 2, but group 3) captains. Group 1 Captains are feathered (slotted) with group 2 First officers. This is based not he fact that a new hire at L US can hold group 1 Captain, and based on the fact that the pay rate is roughly equivalent to Group 2 First officer. Base all ratios on current AAL staffing numbers, because after the transition to SOC, thats what the job opportunities will be based on. 5. No assumption was made about future aircraft retirements, this is moving target and would be difficult to predict the future. The same is applied to aircraft OPTIONS. 6. Specifically date of hire was not looked at due to the disparate hiring cycles of 3 airlines and wide swaths of seniority in each airline list.
So..lets begin.. These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number. Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50 Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption) East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. .. Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30.. Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80. Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX. Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent) Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts. Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots. Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50. Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots. With credit for orders where due. Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE. Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft. Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft. No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined. This proposal gives everyone credit for 1. What they own now and what they are flying now. 2. Their relative position on the seniority list 3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions. 4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire. This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input. Let's say you were hired in 1990 (between 87 and 92 no furlough). AMR contract uses DOH. A US Airways pilot was hired in 1985 (no furlough). US Airways contract uses DOH. (Same standard as AMR). WHO IS SENIOR? |
Lufthansa pilot strike extends to long-haul, cargo flights | Reuters
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected." Hey, why are half the pilots still flying???? That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank. You go APA!! |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1774397)
Lufthansa pilot strike extends to long-haul, cargo flights | Reuters
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected." Hey, why are half the pilots still flying???? That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank. You go APA!! |
Originally Posted by route66
(Post 1774387)
ok. Let's play this way.
Let's say you were hired in 1990 (between 87 and 92 no furlough). Amr contract uses doh. A us airways pilot was hired in 1985 (no furlough). Us airways contract uses doh. (same standard as amr). Who is senior? |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1774377)
Let's make it simple. Date of hire at your prior carrier adjusted for LOS at merger date of AA/US.
No?
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1774377)
I'm coming to work in any case because the West pilots will hate their lot in life and will not support any job action or strike. With 1,700 unified strike breakers its self evident. Welcome to the "New APA" contingent.
|
Originally Posted by flyinawa
(Post 1774438)
No. Let's make it simple and let a neutral third party decide what's reasonable.
There are only about +1,500 West pilots left...quite a downsize from the +1800 employed at the time of the merger announcement with USAir. But hey, let's not water down your dribble with facts. And where do you come up with the strike breaker accusation? I can say without hesitation the West would honor and support any action by our representational Union. I am however, not surprised and your willingness to "come to work". You (and many of your peers) have been playing the "screw the group, it's time I get mine" card for so long I'm sure you'd cross and sleep like a baby. Come on, blaming the West your your willingness to scab...classic. |
Originally Posted by NewGuyHere
(Post 1774412)
half are sticking because the Union over there only authorized the half the pilots to strike, the separation was International vs domestic (EU only). I believe the international side was striking, but not 100% on that.
|
Originally Posted by InformationEcho
(Post 1774414)
Who isn't getting any 777 seats?
"Ring around the Rosie...." |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1774447)
You mean like Johnnie Mac asking the company in the crew news how to report East pilots. The company used the West data in court against the East when making their injunction case. You'll get yours because I won't trust you and many pilots won't trust you or the APA.
|
Originally Posted by NewGuyHere
(Post 1774305)
Has anyone heard about changes to new hire pay effective Jan 1? Rumors are it was going up to $68/hr to compete with big D.
If we end up with a deal, then they will probably be around $72 per hour. ***see the JCBA thread and AA offer thread |
Originally Posted by NewGuyHere
(Post 1774305)
Has anyone heard about changes to new hire pay effective Jan 1? Rumors are it was going up to $68/hr to compete with big D.
|
Guys are flowing at 16-17 year mark now.
|
Originally Posted by DCA A321 FO
(Post 1774887)
Guys are flowing at 16-17 year mark now.
Envoys "longevity" problem has always been the primary criticism and concern of management. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1774911)
Yeah, but there are hundreds who've passed it up because they couldn't swing the pay loss. They figure it would take too many years to break even to say nothing of getting ahead. The new scale virtually eliminates any significant loss and they'd break even within 3 years or so making it more enticing even for those in their later 50's.
Envoys "longevity" problem has always been the primary criticism and concern of management. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1774911)
Yeah, but there are hundreds who've passed it up because they couldn't swing the pay loss. They figure it would take too many years to break even to say nothing of getting ahead. The new scale virtually eliminates any significant loss and they'd break even within 3 years or so making it more enticing even for those in their later 50's.
Envoys "longevity" problem has always been the primary criticism and concern of management. |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1775108)
You mean the Company thinks they are "overpaid"?
Absolutely. Us too. :( |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1774385)
Yeah. Like you got ME!
I just love rubbing your APA (and West) pilots nose's in it the crap when the East pilots tried to give you and yours insight into what you were getting into but NO......YOU AND YOURS GOT THIS. Well, now you got this!!! I will guarantee all the pilots here at the "New American" one thing: it's not because of Glass (or me, for that matter) that your "unity" is at stake. It's your illogical and over grand illusions that the APA pilots are SO MUCH BETTER than every other pilot in the world. And do you KNOW what the KEY DIVIDER IS?: SENIORITY and the LACK of any objective way pilot mergers (which will continue to occur in the future) are handled. Its your loss because the company doesn't car about seniority. And all the pilots have is their reasons for WHY they go in front of somebody else for promotion and furlough. You guys get on the web boards over at C&R and just think you can stick to the company. Talking about ME being "delusional" you guys got me beat my MILES. I'm looking forward to the day in the near future when the Company tells you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and your "unity" simply goes down the toilet. GET A GRIP ON REALITY. I'm bidding Captain on the 777 the first bid I can hold it and you can be sure I'll be enjoying my new found status as a New American SENIOR CAPTAIN then. Oh, and I'll continue to give YOU the what for enjoying my NEW position. You smarta$$ APA pilots "got this"! |
Originally Posted by Imapilot2
(Post 1775395)
I have no dog in this fight, just always liked American Airlines. Thought I would read this thread to see what people thought. Some good ideas from most.....except you. You need help man. You shouldn't even be in an aircraft let alone in the cockpit. You have serious anger issues.
I DO have a "dog" in this fight, because I AM a line Captain. What "good" ideas? Like how the union needs to perform job actions for the MOU they AGREED to? How bad Parker and Kirby treat their pilots? You mean like how the pilots on these forum threads REALLY know much about unionism anyway? Hell they can't even name the founders of the APA or ALPA, nor do they care. So I need help yet YOU don't have a "dog" in this fight? Really? REALLY? I treat my fellow crew members with the highest respect and courtesy every flight and I have NEVER had a complaint....NONE. I've NEVER busted a checkride. NEVER. I've followed SOP to the best of my abilities since I got hired and so far have not had to report to the Chief Pilot for any violation of Company policy. In short, I do what I'm paid to do and what the contract allows for. I really like flying for a major airline. Hell, I even LIKE the new uniform. However, I think there ARE constructive ideas that the UNION needs to address... yet they (APA and ALPA) continue to use systemic flaws of business operations that went out the door with deregulation, 9/11, the great recession, fuel prices just to name a few. Are they spoken about HERE on the FORUM? Only if you view unionism the old way like the majority of the pos(t)ers here do. In fact, the APA is twisting in the wind NOW for the MOU that came into effect less than a year ago and the Pilots are whining about how little money they make because of a deal that I SAID COULD BE IMPROVED (yet got voted in by the majority of LUS pilots)!! But no, I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-stupidity for simply saying that there is a better way but you have to take the TIME to prepare for the future. Hopefully you're preparing for your future in a reasonable manner. Here, want to learn SOMETHING about American Airlines since you always liked them get this: they've offered them MORE than the contract allows to bring up pay more in line (though NOT Delta) with industry rates. Yet the pilots here at APA (former East USAPA pilots) make the incredulous EXCUSE to cover for the APA: "It's also important to understand that before USAPA's involvement, CEO Parker met with the APA board and "promised" them that should the company capture the synergies, revenues and profits earlier than anticipated, he would bring the pilots' pay up earlier than the negotiated three-year mid-contract adjustment. Specifically, Doug Parker told APA: "When we make Delta profits, I'll pay you Delta wages."He also told the APA board that because this Delta pay issue may be problematic with the unsecured creditors, he couldn't make it a part of the written contract, but he assured APA this would occur. The problem is that in the company's recent "take it or leave it" proposal, we would be paid "Delta wages" for only the first year of the contract; we would then trail them for many years beyond. Their proposal, of course, also didn't include profit-sharing, which last year equated to an additional 15% for Delta pilots and was conditional on accepting several work rule concessions." So here you can learn SOMETHING if you are an "aspiring" Airman for a major airline: "you'll ONLY get paid for what you negotiate and GET IT IN WRITING" because "promises" from management are just that. If it's not in writing, YOU WON'T GET IT! Yet of ALL the unions in the world the APA of all of them should know better yet they keep doing the same ole same ole. And if you DO get it in writing do not expect any promises to give you more until the next contract is PLANNED FOR and completed. So, is PLANNING a BAD IDEA??? |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1774911)
Yeah, but there are hundreds who've passed it up because they couldn't swing the pay loss. They figure it would take too many years to break even to say nothing of getting ahead. The new scale virtually eliminates any significant loss and they'd break even within 3 years or so making it more enticing even for those in their later 50's.
Envoys "longevity" problem has always been the primary criticism and concern of management. What exactly IS a "longevity" problem??? |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1775487)
So what REALLY brings you here?
I DO have a "dog" in this fight, because I AM a line Captain. What "good" ideas? Like how the union needs to perform job actions for the MOU they AGREED to? How bad Parker and Kirby treat their pilots? You mean like how the pilots on these forum threads REALLY know much about unionism anyway? Hell they can't even name the founders of the APA or ALPA, nor do they care. So I need help yet YOU don't have a "dog" in this fight? Really? REALLY? I treat my fellow crew members with the highest respect and courtesy every flight and I have NEVER had a complaint....NONE. I've NEVER busted a checkride. NEVER. I've followed SOP to the best of my abilities since I got hired and so far have not had to report to the Chief Pilot for any violation of Company policy. In short, I do what I'm paid to do and what the contract allows for. I really like flying for a major airline. Hell, I even LIKE the new uniform. However, I think there ARE constructive ideas that the UNION needs to address... yet they (APA and ALPA) continue to use systemic flaws of business operations that went out the door with deregulation, 9/11, the great recession, fuel prices just to name a few. Are they spoken about HERE on the FORUM? Only if you view unionism the old way like the majority of the pos(t)ers here do. In fact, the APA is twisting in the wind NOW for the MOU that came into effect less than a year ago and the Pilots are whining about how little money they make because of a deal that I SAID COULD BE IMPROVED (yet got voted in by the majority of LUS pilots)!! But no, I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-stupidity for simply saying that there is a better way but you have to take the TIME to prepare for the future. Hopefully you're preparing for your future in a reasonable manner. Here, want to learn SOMETHING about American Airlines since you always liked them get this: they've offered them MORE than the contract allows to bring up pay more in line (though NOT Delta) with industry rates. Yet the pilots here at APA (former East USAPA pilots) make the incredulous EXCUSE to cover for the APA: "It's also important to understand that before USAPA's involvement, CEO Parker met with the APA board and "promised" them that should the company capture the synergies, revenues and profits earlier than anticipated, he would bring the pilots' pay up earlier than the negotiated three-year mid-contract adjustment. Specifically, Doug Parker told APA: "When we make Delta profits, I'll pay you Delta wages."He also told the APA board that because this Delta pay issue may be problematic with the unsecured creditors, he couldn't make it a part of the written contract, but he assured APA this would occur. The problem is that in the company's recent "take it or leave it" proposal, we would be paid "Delta wages" for only the first year of the contract; we would then trail them for many years beyond. Their proposal, of course, also didn't include profit-sharing, which last year equated to an additional 15% for Delta pilots and was conditional on accepting several work rule concessions." So here you can learn SOMETHING if you are an "aspiring" Airman for a major airline: "you'll ONLY get paid for what you negotiate and GET IT IN WRITING" because "promises" from management are just that. If it's not in writing, YOU WON'T GET IT! Yet of ALL the unions in the world the APA of all of them should know better yet they keep doing the same ole same ole. And if you DO get it in writing do not expect any promises to give you more until the next contract is PLANNED FOR and completed. So, is PLANNING a BAD IDEA??? The illness seems to be intensifying. |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1775490)
So let me ask you a serious question since you brought it up.
What exactly IS a "longevity" problem??? |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1775498)
I'll honor this rare moment of lucidity (although I suspect it's simply trolling for a new springboard for attack :cool:). It's predominantly 18-year scale captains (hundreds of them). They've been trying to run senior pilots off the property for almost a decade to bring costs down.
I accept your premise that they are trying to run "senior pilots off the property for most a decade to bring costs down." So unions, any union....biggest problem is justifying more pay for more longevity. Now you KNOW that the company has said many times they DON'T care about seniority, correct? So if that is true (and it IS true because they have said it in MANY court briefs of which I will spare you if you just take my word for it). They DON'T care about seniority because as of right now they can offer higher paying jobs to junior pilots who are willing to fly Captain at LOWER longevity rates of pay. Put another way, why pay a Captain at 18-year scale when they can pay 1-2 year F/Os at 2 year Captain rates? Following the latest 15-01 thread, why do new hire/junior pilots bid off the F/O 190 seat for Airbus/Boeing right seat or even Captain 190 seats. Is it the prestige...is it geography....is it principle (or lack thereof in some peoples view) or could it be.....MONEY? Why should the Company pay an 18-year guy 18-year longevity PAY when the guy with 1-2 years and Captain "qualified" (ATP, 1st class medical and type rating on the aircraft) will make more than 2 year F/O pay but not as much as the 18-year guy for DOING THE SAME JOB? I'm just asking the question in a civil manner. Thank you for the courtesy of answering me. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1775498)
I'll honor this rare moment of lucidity (although I suspect it's simply trolling for a new springboard for attack :cool:). It's predominantly 18-year scale captains (hundreds of them). They've been trying to run senior pilots off the property for almost a decade to bring costs down.
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1775517)
Good. I'm glad you'll oblige me. (No, really! I mean it.)
I accept your premise that they are trying to run "senior pilots off the property for most a decade to bring costs down." So unions, any union....biggest problem is justifying more pay for more longevity. Now you KNOW that the company has said many times they DON'T care about seniority, correct? So if that is true (and it IS true because they have said it in MANY court briefs of which I will spare you if you just take my word for it). They DON'T care about seniority because as of right now they can offer higher paying jobs to junior pilots who are willing to fly Captain at LOWER longevity rates of pay. Put another way, why pay a Captain at 18-year scale when they can pay 1-2 year F/Os at 2 year Captain rates? Following the latest 15-01 thread, why do new hire/junior pilots bid off the F/O 190 seat for Airbus/Boeing right seat or even Captain 190 seats. Is it the prestige...is it geography....is it principle (or lack thereof in some peoples view) or could it be.....MONEY? Why should the Company pay an 18-year guy 18-year longevity PAY when the guy with 1-2 years and Captain "qualified" (ATP, 1st class medical and type rating on the aircraft) will make more than 2 year F/O pay but not as much as the 18-year guy for DOING THE SAME JOB? I'm just asking the question in a civil manner. Thank you for the courtesy of answering me. |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1775517)
Good. I'm glad you'll oblige me. (No, really! I mean it.)
I accept your premise that they are trying to run "senior pilots off the property for most a decade to bring costs down." So unions, any union....biggest problem is justifying more pay for more longevity. Now you KNOW that the company has said many times they DON'T care about seniority, correct? So if that is true (and it IS true because they have said it in MANY court briefs of which I will spare you if you just take my word for it). They DON'T care about seniority because as of right now they can offer higher paying jobs to junior pilots who are willing to fly Captain at LOWER longevity rates of pay. Put another way, why pay a Captain at 18-year scale when they can pay 1-2 year F/Os at 2 year Captain rates? Following the latest 15-01 thread, why do new hire/junior pilots bid off the F/O 190 seat for Airbus/Boeing right seat or even Captain 190 seats. Is it the prestige...is it geography....is it principle (or lack thereof in some peoples view) or could it be.....MONEY? Why should the Company pay an 18-year guy 18-year longevity PAY when the guy with 1-2 years and Captain "qualified" (ATP, 1st class medical and type rating on the aircraft) will make more than 2 year F/O pay but not as much as the 18-year guy for DOING THE SAME JOB? I'm just asking the question in a civil manner. Thank you for the courtesy of answering me. Must be those piles of stock option, bonus and profit-sharing $$$ that distract them from living up to the agreements they supposedly agree to. Pilots are silly fools.........:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1775524)
Actually, the union is demanding management live up to their promises for a change (silly, I know :cool:). Apparently their bankruptcy agreed to contract no longer suits the needs of the new management here after only 18 months and more concessions are needed because 2.5 billion in 2 quarters still isn't enough. Not that it would matter because management violates the present contract on a daily basis as it is, so it's tough to see the point of cooperating with those who are ethically bankrupt.
Must be those piles of stock option, bonus and profit-sharing $$$ that distract them from living up to the agreements they supposedly agree to. Pilots are silly fools.........:rolleyes: The Company isn't going to GIVE US MORE MONEY without something in exchange, even though they JUST SAID THAT in the crew news (not that I'm naive to believe it) that they were conceding giving the pilots more money with little in return. As far as contract violations are concerned why aren't they being enforced by being grieved???? |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1775524)
Actually, the union is demanding management live up to their promises for a change (silly, I know :cool:). Apparently their bankruptcy agreed to contract no longer suits the needs of the new management here after only 18 months and more concessions are needed because 2.5 billion in 2 quarters still isn't enough. Not that it would matter because management violates the present contract on a daily basis as it is, so it's tough to see the point of cooperating with those who are ethically bankrupt.
Must be those piles of stock option, bonus and profit-sharing $$$ that distract them from living up to the agreements they supposedly agree to. Pilots are silly fools.........:rolleyes: And you said it. Pilots are silly fools. So if I'm to believe you you just called yourself a fool, as well. (I wasn't calling you one I was just pointing it out.) |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:53 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands