Total compensation below United and Delta
 

With this shove-down-the-throat JCBA and MOU with hands tied in bk, we are now locked into the lowest compensation of the 3 legacy carriers until 2019. Giving away profit sharing was one of the biggest mistakes this pilot group could have ever committed.

Let us not make the same mistakes again.
Pay attention to the psychology used against this pilot group.
Do not allow yourself to be played, and let us not be played against each other, as this management group did with AW/US.

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http://s29.postimg.org/gwvg6lo3b/Scr...8_21_31_PM.png

What would you expect in 2019? I'm new to the industry, thanks.

Keep in mind that chart was made a few days ago by DL mgmt as a way of scolding us for turning down the TA.

Don't be scolded. Fight for it!

Thanks for voting the TA down and fighting for something more. That's bolder and braver than how the AA/US pilots folded.

Me too, hope AA is in a good spot then. UAL and DAL should have higher pay then (base only, and still have PS on top of that). The price of fuel should stay low for some time and profits should stay high. Hopefully 2019 will be good for pilots at AA.

Judging from my career arc so far, we'll get profit sharing in 2019, only due to the cyclical nature of this business, the profits will have dried up. That said, who else thinks we'd be crazy NOT to hedge fuel now while it's rock bottom?

AA pilots are frustrated because originally their contract was supposed to be amendable starting with openers in Jan 2017, but the pilot group stupidly traded big pay raises in 2015 for another 2 years on the contract with openers not until Jan 2019. Big, short sighted mistake.

2019 is too far away to predict the economic climate, fuel prices, etc.

Most likely another round of "kick the can". With easily the cheapest pilots among the big 3, there's little incentive for Parker to even offer higher rates, unless he want's scope relief quickly.

To give industry equal rates (or leading by pennies), he'll want Group 1 scope, further relaxation of LTD, more reserve flexibility, including airport standby as a minimum. If we go for it again, he'll get most of the rate increase back from the increased productivity and outsourcing as well as increased insurance costs leaving us no better off and 25% stupider. If we balk, he'll tell us to let him know if we change our minds and tell the media and analysts he offered industry leading pay to his pilots again and we rejected it.

A reasonable possibility though either Ft. Fumble or a majority cry from pilots would put whatever Parker offered up for vote which would likely pass and wa'la...........history repeats itself like it all to frequently does.

Bon Appetit !

It was a year and one day extension on the contract. An opener is just that, if you were seriously thinking we'd get a contract early I have a bridge to sell you.

The MOU was what handicapped us not voting yes/no on that contract. I think it was our only play.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm siding with the company here... we signed our contract, it's done. We aren't going to get retroactive increases because of UAL and DAL leapfrogging us in the future unless it's built into the contract, which it isn't, begging management for a revisit just puts us in a weaker position.

Of course the flip-side of over-expectation is expecting the employees to collectively match the Delta product considering the bad taste of how they feel they've been taken advantage of by someone who anchored his arrival as one who said he would change the culture for the better which has gotten arguably worse.

No free rides and I think it's folly to expect to mimic Delta with a Walmart philosophy towards your employees. Thus, I think with virtual certainty and despite pretty new packaging, the new AA will walk in the foot prints of the old AA, just bigger. As long as all the present financial tailwinds remain in place enriching management, the BOD's and the shareholders, it's all good, but when headwinds kick in and it's the front-mine employees who can really make a difference, I think that's when the chickens come home to roost. It seems more and more, I see the "do the minimum and go home" philosophy in play and how can you blame anyone for that ?

We'll never catch Delta that way, that's for certain, but as I said before, maybe that's not the real goal ?

I think you'll see exactly what UAL did with their pilot group recently. An offer by mgmt in 2018 of some improvements (monetary mainly) for another short extension to the contract. Maybe this is the direction the pilot negotiations and contracts will take in the next 5-10 years across the legacies?

One thing for certain, I hope there is a replacement for DP by the time we roll around for negotiations.

If someone new came in who hasn't gotten his snout into the $$$ trough so deep, then we'd simply start the process over with that unconsummated requirement, which certainly wouldn't help us. Personally, I don't think it matters at this point as we have few things left to take and very little we have leverage to get. In the end, we'll have to take what's offered hat-in-hand (which will cause extreme heartburn) or live with what we have. The cyclical realities may result in an industry downturn just as the big 3 pilots' go into the next round at the end of the decade giving management all the excuse it needs to short-change us again and that's why they are maximizing gains for themselves now.

Considering the reality of this "new" pilot group, a large segment of which is destined for continued intractable warfare (did you read the thread on C & R from the Philly VP ? :cool:) and our leverage, I see little hope but riding it out on the good ship Mediocrity.

I was in the school house a few weeks ago and saw these KDA (Kick Delta's Ass) stickers floating around. I'm very thankful we no longer have kitbags on which to affix these, because some would. I wish that this myopic obsession with what DAL is doing would cause them to mimic their profit sharing. The payout on that last earnings report woulda been pretty noice.

Remind me please, what was the vote breakdown for the JCBA?? (in favor/oppose)

there it is.....just the facts!

I'm assuming you're asking this because you feel like we should just live with the contract and not strive for improvement. If our competitors get a better deal than we have, then the world we operate in has changed. If the economy takes a terrible downturn we will (and have) been asked to give back our gains. If the economy grows, and the airline does better than expected, why shouldn't we ask for more? This is not a one way street.

* No equipment identified in data base
Domicile
% Yes
STL 91.91%
PHX 91.17%
ORD 82.75%
SFO 81.82%
BOS 74.77%
LAX 73.62%
DFW 66.32%
TOTAL 65.68%
CLT 64.97%
DCA 64.54%
LGA 54.71%
PHL 51.33%
MIA 45.38%


So no whining from the good little company men in Phoenix. You don't get to cry and whine when you vote yes to everything.

That's 100% correct. Exactly why all things being equal if I was looking for a job I'd go to Delta or United before AA.

I'd never cast a vote to give the company a thing.

Nice job trying to immatating a nAAtive. You and the rest of your eastie pie holes know da@n well why PHX passed that high... Adios ucrapa!

What college did you graduate from?

I'm not sure what you're implying or trying to say.
I think the facts speak for themselves. 97% yes to the MOU 91% on the JCBA. Those are the facts.

Summary....

PHX is chalked full of good little company men who vote yes on everything that team Tempe wants.

Just a scared third lister lashing out. The sky is falling for them and some can't cope.

Just the facts, what would I fear? That I'll be towards the bottom either way & half of the airline retires in the next decade? Perhaps you mention that to distract from the afore mentioned facts.

Unless of course you voted no to the mou like about 3% did and against the JCBA like about 9 or 10%.

Haha you obviously don't know Jack about us.

The fact that some of you guys bash third listers is very telling. Many of them are very sympathetic to the west, not having a dog in the fight, but the way some westies have treated them has left many jaded.

And all this childish tantrum throwing ^^^^^ above is exactly why we continue to get what we deserve. P/K are banking on keeping the pilots at each others throats for years. We lose, they win.

Carry on!

This^^^^^^

You got it...
The east guys will be gone soon so it's just team misfit in Phoenix now...

You guys are hilarious....I think most third listers are just waiting for you guys to die off or kill each other post SLI.

I personally think there should be an octagon in DFW and we let guys have a death match. That way our seniority goes up and the most insane passionate ones get thinned out.

Don't get me wrong, we understand the atrocities that were committed...but can we not move along. We're fighting the wrong people.


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We have been watching team Tempe profit from it for quite a while now

...but the only people we have a chance of beating at this point.

Ourselves. :cool:

We aren't in a good position thanks to the 65% who voted yes. Basically the company got everything they wanted minus scope... It's not hard to predict what the next round of contract talks is going to entail. We actually held the line on scope it was the one thing everyone could agree on last time- I hope 2020 is no different.

The game was forfeited by us in 2012. The game is over and so who blaming who is pointless now. We are where we are............all of us.

We are NOT in a good position (and never will be from this point forward) because of the "go it alone" philosophy of the three LAA labor groups trying to "end run" our side of labor by making agreements that benefited only themselves and LOCKED US IN to what we have now. The lack of profit sharing and the "cost neutral" arbitration for the JCBA NOT TO MENTION the open ended language of Company implementation of certain sections of the contract doomed us to what we have now....pure and simple.

Once again the yes voters at US Airways are absolutely to blame. The MOU (PHX 97% yes) passed and so did the JCBA. You can write pages upon pages of excuses and twisted logic. Yes voters have killed us and now we kicked the can clear into 2020. When 2020 does roll around we have no work rules left to sell. We voted our way into a corner. My point is clear, if you voted yes don't complain.

I'd love for you to expand on why the sky falling for us. While there is a small segment of the "third listers" that is adversely affected the vast majority have zero change in outcome in the SLI. I think the worst case scenario for somebody hired in their 30s is a 2 year change in reaching the 50th percentile, and an 18 month change in reaching the top 10%. The only thing falling on us is the spittle from the occasional ranting pilot.

Lack of an implementation schedule..one of the many reasons that I voted no. I agree it's a big deal. Especially since the company has allocated nearly all of its IT resources towards the Res system while letting our stuff fall apart (vacation bidding, pay, etc). Making it work on the backs of the employees is pretty standard for this group of managers.

Lastly, no whining if you voted yes. Nothing personal but you wanted it.. You got it. That includes no implementation schedule.

This chart is before uniteds 13% pay increase.

As an added bonus we managed to give away our work rules and basically have no LTD plan, hotel language, etc. Yes voters couldn't look past the hourly rates.