Chicago Tribune: AA pilots looking to ALPA
10-25-2016, 10:26 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,892
All I'm saying is that APA has never gotten us an ILC, ever. So what we have ain't working, even AFTER numerous attempts to change APA (which always fail.) That's why I'm so open to a complete change of union. ALPA may be far from perfect but I'm along 100% sure they will represent us better than APA.
10-25-2016, 02:39 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by aa73
ALPA would represent us far, far better, and more professionally, than APA can ever dream of.
As I recall, Delta and United both just got industry leading TAs in which no concessions were given. Had it been us with APA, I guarantee we'd be taking concessions. That's because AA management has their work cut out for them in having to negotiate against a small in house union vs a much more powerful and global union. They know exactly how to steamroll APA, and due to the APA structure and BOD setup, it's a slam dunk for them every time. That would not happen under ALPA.
Bottom line is that ALPA represents legacy pilot groups much better than any in house union can.
ALPA all the way for AAL pilots...it's time.
As I recall, Delta and United both just got industry leading TAs in which no concessions were given. Had it been us with APA, I guarantee we'd be taking concessions. That's because AA management has their work cut out for them in having to negotiate against a small in house union vs a much more powerful and global union. They know exactly how to steamroll APA, and due to the APA structure and BOD setup, it's a slam dunk for them every time. That would not happen under ALPA.
Bottom line is that ALPA represents legacy pilot groups much better than any in house union can.
ALPA all the way for AAL pilots...it's time.
10-25-2016, 03:36 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 217
Originally Posted by Arado 234
*If* the size of a union matters, how are things over at UPS (IPA, I think) and SWAPA? Not necessarily right now, but looking back the last 20 ~ 30 years? Have UPS and SWA pilots done better with their in house unions compared to ALPA pilots?
Both SWAPA and UPS pilots have down well. They have also both used ALPA resources to move their pilot groups ahead. In the end, there's no secret. It's hard work, preparation, and a support staff that has experience. It's your choice, not ours (other ALPA carriers).
10-26-2016, 09:36 AM
#25
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Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 676
Originally Posted by Riverside
Hopefully this will help them improve their taxi speed in Chicago.
What did they charge you for your Fez?
10-26-2016, 11:18 AM
#26
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
No.
No, no, no and no again.
As a regional guy soon to be at a major I want nothing to do with ALPA at my next airline. This is one time where the big guys not paying attention to the junk the regionals have been dealing with will going to bite them in the &$$. They haven't watched them allow each regional to cut the legs out from under each other and then turn around and say what great contracts they've signed, even though some contracts came with the proposal that they would be receiving another airline's aircraft, or that their contract had clauses that rode on other employee group's concessions. Sure, ALPA worked out great for TWA. ALPA worked great for Airways. The APA seems to like getting rid of things simply because they can (How's Parker working for ya?), and in the case of mergers and acquisitions, ALPA has worked great for the APA. Think about that.
Stay they hell away from ALPA. As someone who has dealt with them for more than a decade, you might as well make kitbag stickers that say "Fly it and Grieve it", because that's going to be your life.
No, no, no and no again.
As a regional guy soon to be at a major I want nothing to do with ALPA at my next airline. This is one time where the big guys not paying attention to the junk the regionals have been dealing with will going to bite them in the &$$. They haven't watched them allow each regional to cut the legs out from under each other and then turn around and say what great contracts they've signed, even though some contracts came with the proposal that they would be receiving another airline's aircraft, or that their contract had clauses that rode on other employee group's concessions. Sure, ALPA worked out great for TWA. ALPA worked great for Airways. The APA seems to like getting rid of things simply because they can (How's Parker working for ya?), and in the case of mergers and acquisitions, ALPA has worked great for the APA. Think about that.
Stay they hell away from ALPA. As someone who has dealt with them for more than a decade, you might as well make kitbag stickers that say "Fly it and Grieve it", because that's going to be your life.
10-26-2016, 12:30 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Your experience at your regional (where I came from, incidentally) is apples to oranges when it comes to ALPA. Totally different dynamic happening.
APA's problems run all the way to the core. It's structured poorly, is very much a Captain's union, has little access to resources, and has proven since its inception to be unable to bargain effectively with management.
APA's problems run all the way to the core. It's structured poorly, is very much a Captain's union, has little access to resources, and has proven since its inception to be unable to bargain effectively with management.
10-26-2016, 12:33 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,892
^^^ try working under APA... you'll change your mind within 2-3 months max.
If you are coming from an ALPA regional, you have no idea how much better - and different - ALPA legacy is. It is night & day different.
In house unions are ineffective at legacy airlines. ALPA is the best bet. Any arguments, take a look at how DL and UA pilots are doing compared to AA.
Edit: that was for Adios, not 450kt!
If you are coming from an ALPA regional, you have no idea how much better - and different - ALPA legacy is. It is night & day different.
In house unions are ineffective at legacy airlines. ALPA is the best bet. Any arguments, take a look at how DL and UA pilots are doing compared to AA.
Edit: that was for Adios, not 450kt!
10-26-2016, 01:16 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Chicago Tribune: AA pilots looking to ALPA
To each their own, I guess. You're right, though, my view of ALPA has been severely degraded after years of being told to accept poor negotiations, it's the best they can do, or watching "my" union helping our competitors undercut us at our expense. I'm sure they treat their legacies better than the regionals, but I have no trust for them. ALPA has its own issues, one of which is that National has gotten big enough to become self serving. IMO you'd be better off fixing the in-house issues rather than swapping out unions and having a leadership still making the same unpopular decisions under the flag of a different union. Just because a name gets changed it doesn't mean the problems are solved. There might be a chance that doing a clean sweep might get you what you want. Then again, maybe not. Again, just my opinion.
10-26-2016, 01:26 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,892
AMF,
Thanks for the reasonable post. Unfortunately, we have tried fixing APA ad nausiem for decades. It never works, because APA is flawed from its very core. It is an ancient organization rooted in the past that still subscribes to 1960s-style thinking. Management has long ago figured out how to bend APA over and succeeds EVERY time. The only way to make progress as AA pilots is to wipe the slate clean and start over - ALPA fits the bill for the world's largest pilot group. ALPA is far from perfect and Lord knows there will be plenty of issues - but I'm convinced there will still be a lot less issues than with APA, and we will finally be able to bring adequate muscle to the negotiating table while at the same time sending a clear and unequivocal message to management that "the amateur games are over."
Thanks for the reasonable post. Unfortunately, we have tried fixing APA ad nausiem for decades. It never works, because APA is flawed from its very core. It is an ancient organization rooted in the past that still subscribes to 1960s-style thinking. Management has long ago figured out how to bend APA over and succeeds EVERY time. The only way to make progress as AA pilots is to wipe the slate clean and start over - ALPA fits the bill for the world's largest pilot group. ALPA is far from perfect and Lord knows there will be plenty of issues - but I'm convinced there will still be a lot less issues than with APA, and we will finally be able to bring adequate muscle to the negotiating table while at the same time sending a clear and unequivocal message to management that "the amateur games are over."
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