Except I did. Only I was low, slow, and inhaling dust while the C-5, C-17 guys got their combat pay one "lasing" at a time. Am I jealous he is at American? Absolutely. I am not impressed with a former military IP who states "the risk to my license was getting too high." Sounds like a conceited SOB who came out of the womb with thousands of hours of international heavy time.

[QUOTE=MiracleMets;2818634] "guys got their combat pay one "lasing" at a time."

That is still going on over here every day. They report it above 250 most of the time. We just look at each other in the brief and roll our eyes.

Unfortunately, that steely eyed, combat hardened, douchebag is gonna have a lot higher seniority number at Delta than the ones of us who read the Southern/Atlas threads...

Rock what boat? So are you saying "union pilots" use the hiring process as a leverage? During negotiation, they decline 99% of the interviewees even though they are fully qualified as a way so company cannot get pilots so would come to the table and negotiate. During normal times, they would hire 99% of the same interviewees. That would be despicable! They are wasting company's time/money and more importantly, wasted time/money of the interviewees.

If that is the case, then company is right to put retired pilots who are involved in training in the interview process. They are more neutral and unbiased. It's not like they randomly use any retired pilots.

I think there's bias from all parties during an interview. That's why having union representation is important. More perspectives lead to a better selection/result. Less perspective leads to worse outcomes.

FWIW, I've flown with a lot of pilots coming to us from regionals, 135 and corporate who bring a lot to the table. Often my strengths compliment their weaknesses and their strengths compliment my weaknesses. The problem isn't the human beings we're hiring. The problem is how we are training and treating them once they are here. We're consistently failing our pilots and relying on the knowledge they bring rather than the knowledge we imbue. Unfortunately, I haven't seen the company own their failures and announce any corrective action yet. There's still a lot of public back-patting going on at all levels despite killing three people. This makes me think we are still dangerously out of touch.

There's a lot of us here that did. We should hang out. I mean, I like to talk about weird sh-t like the history of nails or different carpentry techniques in Europe. But still. You know. We could hang and wax geeky.

This is the most reasoned and rational post of the thread. Many of us in the ACMI world got accustomed to new hires who had thousands of hours of international time because they came from failed airlines. When we were new we were mentored by seasoned pilots. If you don't teach new pilots they can't learn. (this goes for both the companies and the pilot groups)

Perfectly stated.

That is not only not what I said, that also isn't what happened at all. I bet nobody could ever charge you with lack of creativity though.

So much for romanticized Facebook recruiting.

To the Sky Gods,

Some of us were not born as 747 Captains,
Some of us require training,
Some of us require guidance,
Some of us require more then one oceanic crossing,
Some of us don’t have 5000hrs heavy time,
Some of us require a Captain willing to share their experience,
Some of us require that you offer mentor ship as per FOM,
Some of us can’t read your mind,
Some of us are here because we enjoy it,
Some of us are here because we want to be here,
Some of us did not come from the Navy,
Some of us did not come from the Air Force,
Some of us did not come from Airforce One,
Some of us weren’t born as 747 Captains.....
Forgive us.

All absolutely true. Most of this applies to me as well as, I assume, you.

The issue isn't that Atlas is now forced to hire less qualified pilots, or less experienced pilots, but that many pilots regardless of qualifications and experience are simply too unqualified and experienced to be hired at a company that places such significant responsibility on new hires in such a remarkably short time span.

It would be one thing if our training department were equipped, trained, and allowed to provide the necessary training, but they aren't.

It is said that all flying is %10 skill and %90 judgement.

Skills can be taught - given enough time.

Judgement can truly only come with experience.

It is entirely possible that an Atlas captain with zero international experience could end up flying on the back side of the globe with a crew who have less experience than he has. We have already had NAT trained pilots fly the NOPAC routes who were had no idea about how obtain their clearance (not required) and, conversely, NOPAC trained pilots who crossed the NAT Tracks all the way to Europe without uttering a word to anyone (where a clearance is definitely required).

And, while OTJ guidance is routinely given out by Atlas captains, the training department is forced more and more often to simply dump less-than-qualified pilots into the system to be brought up to speed on virtually EVERYTHING by non-instructor line captains which is neither safe nor is it fair to those captains.

So, no, being a skygod is not a requirement to be hired here, but neither can we hire pilots who have no idea how to operate in complex, unsupported, and extremely difficult circumstances without some sort of "ZERO-TO-MACH-ONE" training regimen like the military has and Atlas ain't going to do that.

The biggest most valuable item in your tool box as a pilot is common sense.
Not experience.
Common sense can not be taught.
If you ask me something and I answer “I don’t know” you need to value that I’m being honest and not hammer me for “not knowing” or going on your diatribe about how the Training Center is not teaching your pet peeve.

Not sure why you are trying to pick a fight here. I also agree that common sense is also valuable.

If a new hire has common sense:

1. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to graduate the Atlas training system as a pilot who knows enough to be a safe pilot?

2. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to ask the right questions prior to getting into trouble?

3. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to get hired SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN AT ATLAS ???

There isn't a captain at Atlas that won't answer a new hire's questions. But to hold a long range nav class in flight during what is supposed to be your rest period is asking too much ... even if a guy has lots of common sense.

While common sense is always a good thing and in aviation it will keep you from walking into the prop, but it won't help you navigate the bamboo triangle on a dark and stormy night. Experience will. And experience can't be taught, either.

Yes there are.

Agree with you there.
But that can’t be taught in a classroom either.
So if it can’t be taught in a classroom where does it need to be taught?

*and I’m not looking for a fight by the way, just explaining from my side of the “my buttons, our buttons”.

Before or after those who aren't qualified, yet squeak through, drive a 767 into the mud?

;)

Filler filler

The Buffalo NY crew was also qualified.
And so were these:
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/delta.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/american.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fedex.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/ups.htm

There's qualified, then there's qualified.

Holding an ATP and having enough hours to get the job means squat. The FO in the 767 had the hours, but all one needs to know about those is the last one.

A byproduct of movement in the industry is that many slots are being filled by people who not long ago wouldn't have been considered. People who are attempting to run before they are prepared to walk, much less crawl.

[QUOTE=X58DeltaDriver;2818680]
So true. Take any C130 SAFIRE report, and right after will be the report from the -60 they were actually shooting at...

The reality of the situation is that the highly experienced, top of the stanine test aviators are getting rather thin on the ground. I'm a noob in the international big plane sky gawd game, but after a couple of decades in "private jet" flying, the problems you're confronting seem pretty familiar, and I don't have an answer for you other than "do everything you can to bring the other guy up to where he needs to be". Not out of altruism, but out of rational, enlightened self-interest. Realistically, the guys who are going to the right seat in ACMIs (or LCCs, or anything that isn't a Legacy) are not going to be the aces of the base, for the most part. The thing is, the plane doesn't move without an ass in both seats. If the plane doesn't move, it gets parked or sold. I'm trying to learn as hard and fast as I can, as I suspect 90% of the noobs are. But taking the attitude of "you don't belong here" doesn't help anyone, including the salty. I agree, btw, that there are the 10%ers who just scream entitlement and want to raise the gear and stare at their phones, but most of us want to get to be competent, capable crewmembers, and we're dead anxious to absorb the knowledge you have. By helping us, you help yourselves.

Thank you Cardboard.

https://media.giphy.com/media/oBPOP48aQpIxq/giphy.gif

What? The person made a legit point as to why he or she left, or a contributing factor. There was a catastrophic flight recently. Maybe they saw the writing on the wall. Congrats on american btw.

We all have to start somewhere, and none of us were born knowing everything about flying.

These posts often get very emotional, but that is understandable when you have a hull loss with three dead pilots in a pile of pieces on the ground. It will be very interesting if the whole story ever comes out about this crash. I suspect it will eventually since the jump seat pilot's family will certainly sue for wrongful death.

But as some have alluded to here, we are sending pilots across the NAT for the very first time with line captains not check airman. Think about it. I flew across the tracks with two first officers who had never been across. I had to teach them how to do it and be there for the entry, just so that I could take a rest in the middle. This is not normal, is it?

Atlas Air signs pilots off of OE without a North Atlantic flight and releases them for worldwide duty!

I love to teach, but I am not a check airman. Captains should be mentoring FO's on all of the international nuances of flying, not basic procedural stuff.

I want our entire pilot group to be as strong as possible because flying long haul is a team effort. Ultimately, I hope every pilot I fly with is better than I am so that I can retire some day and enjoy myself.

The ramifications of a GNE , or worse , to the entire Atlas transatlantic operation requires professional , detailed and thorough training by experienced aviators. If you don't understand what a GNE is , or as an organisation , don't give a damn- you shouldn't be on the Atlantic and the authorities will be very unforgiving of mistakes.

Amen to that!

Is it common that GNEs are being generated throughout the operation? Just curious..

We had a crew enter the NATS without a clearance of any kind. They did not know because all they had flown was the NOPAC where the procedures are very different.'

I don't know how we get away this is stuff...

If that’s the case , and is the norm - then it is only a matter of time that Atlas loses its approval / authority to fly the Atlantic. It’s as simple as that. Might be a great way to get management’s attention , but at the sacrifice of something greater.
As a regular 30 West visitor , for the safety of all crew and pax , unprofessional conduct cannot be tolerated in the Atlantic HLA anytime , NATS or not.

I keep hearing rumors about the Atlas 767 FO actions. I haven't seen the NTSB release anything yet. Are these just rumors or is there something more to the story?

Reverse your percentages and that is more of the true picture.

The issues that are going on are industry wide, not just at Atlas/Southern.

I was just on a Delta Airlines flight and on landing we were all over the place and had to do a go-around, "for traffic on the runway". Yeah right.

Those issues are a product of highly automated aircraft, where 8000 hours of experience means that there was only about 200 hours of actual stick time. Basic actual real "flying" skills versus "operating" an aircraft is the big issue. Those basic airmanship skills have eroded to a point that is horrifying at this point, mostly what I have seen is that they are completely non-existent. There is a lack of understanding of the basic concepts of anything that has to do with flying.

Fear - is if the "pilot" has to fly the aircraft with the autopilot off greater than 200' off the ground. I see too many people that if the autopilot would pack up it will be an emergency situation. VNAV is used in all situations as there is the fear that they will not be able to remember to slow down to 250 kts below 10,000'.

Sick and tired of hearing excuses that the airspace is too complex for hand flying. B*llsh*t! The airway structure has not changed from the days of flying the Classic out of VHHH with a FD, HSI, RMI, and the mighty Carousel IVA. The only thing that has changed is that the tolerances have tightened up. As long as your instrumentation is up to those tolerances you should have no problem. Nowadays you don't even have to tune a radio!

I will give this to you, there are some individuals out there that are either quite skilled, or have the attitude and aptitude to learn. They are in the minority.

What I will say is that majority of the newbies out there don't want to learn, are condescending, confrontational, and a trivializing lot. They don't have either the skills or that attitude/aptitude. The major issue with these types is this: THEY COMPROMISE SAFETY BY BEING A DISTRACTION.

I will always give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and a chance. What I will not do is coddle some idiotic, narcissistic clown, who needs to be the center of attention.

My responsibility is the safe operation of aircraft, period end of story. I endeavor to do the upmost to this goal. That means dealing with a crumbling maintenance infrastructure, clownage in the training department, a complete lack of morale, among other things, and yes, difficult, petulant children in the cockpit - oops "Flight Deck"

End rant.

Flame away, children.

I know of at least 3 OE failures at Southern in the last 2 months. That’s all I know of from my limited POV. I have no idea of the number if you lump in GS & sims.

Well, there in lies the rub. No one with any actual first hand knowledge can/will say anything official because they are bound not to divulge the information.

But you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 2 and 2 together with what information is readily available. Those of us who fly for this dirt-bag outfit everyday have been warning people for several years now about the problems at Atlas. The real miracle is that we have not killed more people.

Caveat emptor!

This is just a rumor, one OE student flying into VHHH was overwhelmed, and when the Check Airman asked him if he needed anything, the OE student said it was all too much and just got out of the seat. Supposedly this was at about 18,000'. At least it was not on short final.

It was a good rant -- well said. I do disagree a bit with regard to the percentages; I find most of the new guys to be sharp and willing to learn. But the deadwood that used to be the occasional outlier is now a measurable minority that is rapidly growing. And boy, do they have an attitude.

And it is not just here, friends at legacy airlines have the same concerns.

I would also add CRM to your list. A great idea that, like automation, has been taken too far. And a lot of it has been badly taught. "Arrogant, stupid Captain is trying to kill you" has been a theme, but I have never heard a word that I can recall about what to to when the FO is advocating and playing the CRM cards -- but is wrong.

Take a pilot puppy mill graduate who spent a lot of Daddy's money being told that training is all that matters, add over reaching CRM and it should not surprise anyone that a growing number of new pilots have little interest in learning from the experienced pilots. And I don't say Captains because the same dynamic is apparently playing out when the Captain is in the bunk and the new guy has an attitude with the more experienced FO that he is sitting next too.

And that ends my rant.

Attitude and aptitude are everything IMHO.

I want to go on the record stating that there are some wonderful and sharp young pilots at Atlas. But, as stated above, the spectrum is all over the place.

We have a new hire who was described to me by a fellow captain as "the worst pilot he has ever seen." This particular aviator's reputation is quickly spreading throughout the organization. Captains are afraid to let this person touch the controls.

I flew with a new guy in the sim a while back who did the best steep turn I have ever seen. Some of these guys/gals are very savvy with technology and grasp things very quickly.

Ditto on the CRM. Been saying that for years as well. Lots to be said about that.

I just received an email from airline pilot central entitled "747 FO Opportunity of a Lifetime."

Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:

So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.

Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.

And the sad part is that we have lost many good young aviators that were here for 2-4 years to FedEx, UPS, and legacies. These pilots should have been the new core of our airline. They were gaining the experience necessary to become competent and efficient captains.

Our competition saw their value as BF and JD did not... :mad:

I’ve flown with individuals who probably have never made a turn in the jet. 400’ Autopilot “A” on departure... 500’ Autopilot disconnect and CFIT the jet onto the runway.

Nope, that's just a bait and switch. If you apply with less than 2500 hours, you will get an email saying "You are not competitive for Atlas large gauge fleet, but how about 737 at Southern?".