High Failure Rates - Atlas / Southern
 

So, the head of training and the fleet captain finally admit to the high bust rate for initial training. They want to address all the failures by failing more new hires earlier in training to avoid the high failure rate on the FAA type rating.

No discussion about raising the minimum requirements to get hired above the legal minimums. No discussion about a new and improved CBA to attract pilots with experience likely to successfully carry one through training.

Come to Atlas or Southern. If you are not sure if you have what it takes, we will sort it out for you. If you don't have what it takes, we will give you a pink slip you will have for the rest of your career requiring an explanation for all future interviews. Good Luck!

Which at that IS better than letting you kill yourself by putting you into a position you didn’t have the experience for when we recruited you anyway.

Anyone considering Atlas/Southern had better understand that there is enormous jeopardy that your training will NOT be successful.

Atlas/Southern rely on self study methods, so the burden is entirely on the candidate to pass or at least self-identify their own training deficiencies... You don't know what you don't know, making this nearly impossible absent constant evaluation by a qualified instructor or substantial experience to draw upon as you progress.

The bigger message needs to be that Atlas does not have an AQP program and still relies on 1950’s style training which relies upon and demands that a candidate have a high level of proficiency in type or an equivalent aircraft.

The staggering increase in Busts and no recommends and even terminations of incoming new-hires is revealing the inadequacy of the training program.

It's not that the instructors or new-hires aren't trying, it's that the system currently in use is a set-up for failure for those lacking 5,000+ hours of 121 international wide-body experience.

Luck simply will not cut it, experience is the surest pathway forward for anyone taking on this type of training scenario.

Excargodog hit it on the head. I think Atlas demonstrated what happens when you don’t bust weak pilots! Nuff said

Let’s be honest, though. Some of the people here just don’t have what it takes. You can’t always figure that out during an interview. I’ve seen strong, skilled aviators fall flat in their face and I’ve seen weak pilots become FO’s because they met the standards.

That’s the problem Dave.

How exactly are we supposed to figure this out? Atlas kicked the pilot group out of the interview process, which was excellent BTW. HR hires the pilots and that begs the question, What do they know about hiring pilots? No logbook review, no sim ride, and judging from recent history - no PRIA review either.

No argument there. It is sad...no, it is criminal that we have ended up where we are.

No FAA oversight either!

There is an answer.

Not That I Saw.....
 

I interviewed with two recently retired Captains and Check Airmen. The technical interview was fairly comprehensive, as was the logbook review, HR portion, and company overview. They asked probing questions and followed-up in a thoughtful way. Several did not receive CJOs. I don't often post. But, this is wrong information.

Management stooges does not equal the pilot group. The interests are conflicted. You should stick to lurking.

In my experience it is correct information, and your interview was wildly different... But to each their own.

Retired Capts and/or current managers...lol...check airmen :rolleyes:

...are different than the union pilots we used to have on the hiring board.

It's TRUE, we have a "Hiring Committee" still. But they are no longer invited to sit on the interview board.

I don’t know that AQP is the biggest issue. Many today do shy away from any program that is rigid and extremely demanding expecting to be coddled and that’s a good thing for Atlas. Weeding out those who shouldn’t be there before spending time and money on them is better for the company, and it encourages potential applicants to avoid setting themselves for a failure that will follow them. The biggest problem that a company like Atlas faces is the compensation and the type of flying that they do. Flying 747’s to places that most people have never heard on a 17 day stretch with all kinds of explosives and other hazmat downstairs isn’t an entry level position. Anyone who applies to a company like this should be fully confident that they can handle whatever is thrown at them. Atlas is going to have to face the compensation issue. Paying entry level wages for a job that is far more demanding than what anyone at United or Delta ever face isn’t going to attract pilots who are able to perform. My guess is that one of the consequences of the 767 crash is that the FAA will be closely monitoring the training department and the standards will only be tightened. I don’t know that Atlas will ever be paid like UPS, but not getting close to the mark is just going to maintain the current problems. This isn’t right after 9/11. Highly qualified pilots aren’t on the street and desperate to feed their families.

Put pilots back in hiring!

How about raise the hiring standards where new hires aren't struggling and busting out of training?

It was the same way at World back in the day. The ACMI’s don’t have the budget for AQP and spoon-fed “Train to Profiency.” Let alone 50-hr OE’s.

Instead it’s “Here’s a box of books.” Learn them all (“What’s a Learning Objective?”) See you on your checkride in a month. Good luck.

6 sims only.

Applicant beware.

Atlas doesn’t do logbook reviews...that post was likely faked. Nice try. High fail rates are here. Multiple per class now is routine, some not even being recommended for the Checkride.

They did when I interviewed in 2012....

If they are going to hire candidates with minimal experience, how about re-introducing the sim evaluation. Let’s make sure someone can at least manually fly a plane around the pattern in IMC. Frankly, some of what I’m seeing online is disturbing and unsettling.

Atlas meet Darwin, Darwin Atlas.

^ ^ yes please!

They can’t spare any sim time for interviewees due to all the remedial training being given. F

My guess is it would cut the already dismal number of applicants in half. Can’t have that. Put meat in the seat at all costs.

Either Jonny doesn’t grasp written language or he just wants to scare people off.
Jonny post the email for all to read, bet they come away with a different interpretation. I bet you had a rough time getting through training. You probably came away from your type like you did your English class, just barley.

Irony award.:D

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

Nice one!! Funny stuff

I left there as an FO a little over a year ago. My seniority at the time could have held 747 CA. I was hired in 2013 as a C-5 IP and my typical classmates were C-5/C-17/KC-10 IPs or former MD-11/747 ACMI guys. When I left in 2018, the typical new hire was a regional FO with 0 TPIC. One of the reasons I left is because the risk to my license was getting too high. I did not want to be put into a position where I was "single pilot" as the SHTF going into Africa or Asia at night in the weather with someone with zero heavy international experience and the bare mins to get an ATP as my FO.

Flying for Atlas is demanding and not for everyone. The difference in pay and QOL between being a senior rj captain making fairly good money and starting over at Atlas just isn’t worth it for most. The low time f/o making almost no money looks at Atlas as a big pay raise and heavy jet time to build a resume. The company can either offer a compensation package that would attract and retain qualified pilots, change the training footprint to accommodate those who aren’t ready to be there, or just continue washing out those who bit off more than they can chew. I’m betting that they go with the last option.

No, the reason you left is because you were hired by American. Hey Mr. C5 IP. How many times did your SIC in your C5 show up with 1500 hours, especially 1500 hours of heavy international time? Were you expected to teach guys with a couple hundred hours to fly it? Probably. How many times did you fly to Afghanistan in ****ty weather for one day at the end of the month, rolling into the next month, getting both months tax free? I bet you didn't complain then. Just because a regional FO doesn't have TPIC time doesn't make him worthless. You don't deserve to be the PIC of any aircraft unless you can do the entire flight "single pilot". That is what you get paid the big bucks for. Be a leader, be a teacher, be a role model and pay it forward to those who come behind you. I bet you were a great officer.

Sorry. Your post sounded really selfish and whiney.

you sound jealous. somebody didn't make the cut to be a military pilot.

Hire unskilled pilots.....high failure rates

Wow! No dog in this fight other than looking forward to the day things turn around for the Atlas pilot group, but as a former USAF enlisted aircrew, you make a good point!

Hahahaha. Truth right here.

What makes you think Atlas "kick the pilot group out of the interview process"? I interviewed with Atlas. As with all interview, there was a technical interview conducted by a retired 747 captain who is an instructor in the training department

And just exactly how would the "pilot group" hire pilots comparing to management? They hire their buddies even though they have 5 DUIs and felony convictions?

Too funny! You guys crack me up. So, pilots on the seniority list (union pilots) used to be a very important part of the interview and hiring process.

As things got more toxic a few years ago, the pilots were kicked out of the process. The only "pilots" allowed in the process now are chief pilots (management) and retired pilots that management knows won't rock the boat.

Well hey little buddy... Mommy and Daddy must be real proud of your with all the Alpha Numerics.... cuz nobody really gives a rats a$$. Go put your license in a glass case and do what ever gets your rocks off with those letters and numbers on your certificate.

The opposite actually, and I’m glad you brought that up. Management follows orders. It’s no secret that they’ve been ordered to hire pilots who would have a difficult time being hired at more desirable airlines. So your 5 DUI scenario pilot would have a better chance getting hired if he were interviewed by a management pilot. Thanks.