Atlas Air vs. Air Transport International
 

Asking for a friend ...

If a regional pilot had a CJO at both Atlas and ATI, which would be the better option and why?

Do both. Like in those 80's shows where you have two girlfriends....keep dropping trips and going on sick leave...throw in mil leave to spice it up

This is the only responsible answer. You should also wear a members only jacket at all times and have a helicopter you have to punch to get it to start.

Where do you live? Are you planning to move? Do you understand Atlas's gateway travel vs ATI's home-basing? What kind of flying do you want to do? What airframe were you offered? What airplane do you want to fly? What are your goals with the job? Are you hoping to move to another company or stay where you land? What's your family situation? What are your finances like?

Your question isn't bad, in fact this is exactly the place to ask it. However, if you want useful responses, you'll need to provide a little context and background for the advice you receive to contain appropriate focus and scope. Otherwise, as you've already seen, you'll get a lovely scatterplot useful and witty responses. Pilots, what more can I say?

ATI : 35 Aircraft
ATI : 400 pilots

Atlas: 121 aircraft
Atlas : 2100 pilots (after Southern merger)

As stated earlier, what are you trying to do?

I saw somewhere last week with all the new hires we're around 3,400 pilots?.

Maybe we’ve hired that many in the last couple years. But no, a combined seniority list will give us roughly 2,100 pilots on property at atlas/southern.

I'd be awful worried about working for an ACMI company that has essentially one customer (ATI).

Just depends what you want brah!

747?

Home basing?

Etc

What if his friend does not live at an Atlas base and is not planning to move, does not really care what equipment he flies or what routes, his priorities are QOL and pay?

FedEx or Ups.

As dumb as this sounds, I'd go with your gut. Your gut integrates all the factors in front of you better than any of us will. Plus we're all jaded and have our spin on things. If life goes to hell in a few years, you'll figure something out and land on your feet. Nothing really matters.

A bit of a downer and not in keeping with the 80s theme, I think. If, you know, basically accurate. The important thing is having great hair and a Rick Moranis type sidekick to make you look even better than you already do, amirite?

Work both paces. Grow a moustache and gain a British accent. Move into some wealthy person's house pretending to be a caretaker, but instead hire a former Navy Seal with psychic abilities to drive a fast car and solve crimes. Accept the former seal's abuse when he breaks your model bridge and save him when he gets lost in the jungle or hunted by the mob. Meet a stodgy, old, British lady who gets easily flustered.

Despite the british accent, you're secretly from Texas and drink like a fish.

Probably the best article I’ve seen on the subject...

https://www.latlmes.com/business/cho...-airline-job-1

I think we already have that guy at Atlas. :p

I have no insight into internal culture, morale, etc, but bottom line up front seems to be

Atlas: international ops (Asia, etc) , 747, 767

ATI: domestic ops (mostly), 767/757, home basing.

I don't believe either are "perfect", nor are any other companies.

Just think about your stress level at Atlas vs ATI. Home basing is a big deal right now since it's harder to get a ride to work.
The airlines are supposed to start blocking the middle seats because of the corona. I just traveled on AA going to work, there were 25 AA deadheaders on board, 2 jumpseaters in the cockpit and they even left people at the gate. Glad I had a ticket!
Also consider the stress you'll endure working for a company that has a toxic relationship with the pilot group and the morale is low. That stuff will wear on you.

Atlas buys you a tickets as well.

To travel on your off day for no pay credit. Big difference between Gateway and Homebasing.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
You don’t jumpseat on other airlines to try and get to your base at Atlas.
You get a regular ticket.
Yes, you travel on a day off but more often then not you can travel home on a ‘workday’.
Also last time I checked management doesn’t join you in the cockpit so any toxicity is self induced.

Toxic management?

Like UPS management pilots maybe?

All this talk about toxicity sounds like echo-chamber BS

Which is a better job right now? ATI. Better contract, better pay, real home basing, no day off travels.

which will be better in a few more years? I’d bet on Atlas. Once their integration and CBA finally get done they’ll be a comparable contract with Kalitta, Omni and ATI, plus be a larger company with multiple customers, instead if just one or two.

it will definitely be harder now at Atlas with lower rates, $1600 a month for four months of training and 50 hour guarantee pay first year.

Who pays more? I don't work at either. My friends at Atlas said they got a 10% pay raise.

So comparing the higher rate at Atlas for 2nd year 747 F/O, it’s 110 an hour. ATI is 122.

Atlas gets rig at 4.85 a day

ATI does not have a rig, and it sounds like guys are just making guarantee a month.

I think Atlas guys are always complaining about being gone for 17 days straight or whatever, so that means their rig pay puts them at about 82 hours I take it? Plus I heard their per diem is 4.00 an hour right now cause of COVID (who knows if they’ll keep it).

I’m just looking from the outside here, and I don’t know either contract, so I can’t tell ya who’s making more and whatnot. But the rig pay is certainly not a bad thing for the Atlas guys..

To get 82 hours rig pay your trip would have to start at 00:00 on day one and end at 24:00 on day 17. You’re more likely to get in the low to mid 70s. So far this year I’ve had two months with 10 over, two with 1 (one was a training month and one was what we call a hybrid line, a mix of reserve days and flying days and I wasn’t called out on the reserve days), one with 14 and June will be 13.

Concur, low to mid seventies without trying and trips normally get blown apart with no trip guarantee. 2020 has been weird though - since Jan only 2 trips blew apart. One bad and one for the good. 10% raise, per diem bump temporary most likely and Covid xtra pay = not bad at all. 92 hrs this month as awarded, plus xtra pay, what the heck is going on. Not the norm, but a good surprise. Take the Great with the not so great. It’s fine.

apples to apples on the 767

ATI
first year - $83 per hour, 60 MMG, full pay from day 1
second year - $122 ph

Atlas
first year - $87 per hour, 50 MMG, $1600 per month for about 4 months
second year pay - $92 ph

Small correction, assuming MMG is minimum monthly guarantee.

At ATI its BUG for bid unit guarantee. It’s 60 hours per bid unit at 13 bid units a year. So to make it match up multiply 83 by 60 by 13 then divide that answer by 12. That would be an equivalent monthly guarantee. Otherwise looks about right

ATI is the better company. It's a no-brainer. Go for it.

We shall see... BUT people should understand that this is pure conjecture at this point. There is no evidence or historical precedent to back up this claim. And now we have almost zero leverage as well. So until proven otherwise this is mostly magical thinking. This is forced amalgamation & forced arbitration (ie- no vote & no strike threat.).

Some Atlas questions:

1. For the 767 flying, what % of flying is domestic (eg Amazon flying and similar) vs international?

2. Is the 747 schedule always a 17-day schedule? Are there more flexible schedules?

3. Approx what is the mix of 767 vs 747 slots for new hires these days? Is it purely based on need or is there an experience component for determining fleet?

4. What is the current upgrade time average? What is the seat lock time for bidding across fleets?

1.) 767 is about 30% overseas, 70% domestic, depending on how you measure.
2.) Purely need based. If they need people in different airframes they'll rack and stack how and where they want to assign you but they look at more than just experience. Turboprop guys get 747 and prior international ACMI guys have gotten the 767.
3.) The mix of 767 to 747 hiring is all over the place depending on classes. What's going on today has no real bearing on what will be happening next month.
4.) Upgrade is around 5 years or less. There's a three year seat-lock, but that does not apply to upgrade. So you could hire into the 747 and take an upgrade into another plane next year, theoretically.

Atlas has “30 day” lines and “60 day” lines. They should really be called one month lines and two month lines since some months have 31 days but it’s Atlas. January 31st and March 1st are in the February bid to bring it up to 30 days. The 30 day lines on the 74 tend to be one block of 15-17 days. You’re likely to be on the other side of the planet in the middle of your trip so it would cost them money to bring you home. The 60 day lines tend to broken into three trips. You might have 10 days toward the beginning of the first month. Then the last seven days of the month and the first seven days of the second month. Then nine or ten days towards the end of the second month.

There are also “Hybrid” lines that are a mix of flying and up to 4 reserve days. The reserve days can be separate from the flying days, at the end of the flying days or even leading into the flying days which makes no sense because if they use you during those days the whole rest of your line is usually shredded and they’ve having to get people to cover your flying while you sit on the other side of the world.

Looking at some 76 lines even many of their 30 day lines are broken into 2 chunks of flying.

Good info!

Of course, but history is usually a good indicator.....the terrible USAir CBA and AA CBA with like 8 years in section six didn’t get finalized in 2015 and be on par with their piers? No, guess that really didn’t happen after all.
Atlas/Southern will eventually get a contract. Right now it’s in the pilots interest to either get it yesterday or wait until the rebound from covid. Doing it while several thousand legacy guys are on furlough won’t work our well.

Is there an option to drop trips within bid periods? Or is there a means to give away or trade trips within a period?

You can trip trade, but it's not through an automated process, like you may be used to elsewhere. You have to actually get you and a friend to email a person in planning, etc.

This is the most underrated comment in this thread. ATI has the better contract, pay, QOL, "culture" among the two at this moment in time. However, I'd be very cautious about ATI's growth given the majority of it is predicated on Amazon Air increasing their flying. It could work out great, however, diversification is critical to the long-term success of Atlas Air.

Good point.