What is training like at the ACMI world?
 

I’m interested in the larger carriers, like Atlas, ATI, Kalitta, Western... some people carriers, too.

I’m at a regional where just about everything is AQP, except for upgrade. Is AQP available for recurrent, initial?

What is the quality of training? What if you need an extra sim session?

Looking for the big picture. Thanks.

K4 is aqp, no different. We're not hiring at the moment, but heavy aircraft experience is king. Atlas I believe is old school.

Just about everybody is the old way except for K4. Honestly, having done both, for initial new hires there isn't much difference in my opinion. You've got a lot to learn in s short time and need to study, group study and study some more.
In either program if you need an extra Sim you'll typically get it in either type of training program. Both programs are fine, stop worrying over it. If your not wanting to go someplace because they don't do AQP, or basing your job decision targeting on AQP or not, then your in the wrong profession.

In all honesty I feel like I know more about Boeing equipment than my peer group at my current airline and I attribute 100% of that to the Atlas instructors and evaluators. It is old school and not AQP, but if you take it seriously you'll breeze through training on any Boeing you have for the remainder of your career.

Cujo has the right of it here, there isn’t much of a difference during initial training for a new hire.

da42pilot, As to your reference of ATI and AQP, we’re at about a minimum of a year probably longer from bringing AQP into the training department here.

Hope this helps,
FAJ

Good stuff right there Globe. Only thing to add with the “Old School”, the instructional areas have the opportunity to ask questions and be honest when learning a system or process. It was a very open environment to learning but you are expected to do the work as you are not spoon fed. Make the effort and the instructors go the extra mile as they want you to succeed was my take. Definitely not like an actual text I received from a friend going thru training at a non-AMCI as it read:

“Training hasn’t been pleasant. I was summoned to a meeting to ‘realign’ Me to the process. My sim partner was already aligned and knew not to do anything that could be perceived as a challenge to the instructors authority.”

This gent is a very humble good guy and yes, does ask a lot of honest questions so I doubt he was in the wrong. But, I do recognize there are times to shut up already and color and it doesn’t matter how you did it before at carrier “X”.
Axe to grind, don’t know, don’t care but it says a lot. I didn’t see anything remotely like this here except for: “Yup, got it, let’s move along now to the next item!” with a sarcastic good ribbing ending “Shall We!” Old school without the bite if you will.

Atlas is definitely old school, but as long as you keep putting in the effort, they will work with you. At least that's how it was when I went through initial in early 2018. While it's not AQP, I never felt unprepared or overly stressed out at any training gate or check ride. Group study is a major key to success in our program. Every one who participated in it was able to get through with little to no problems.

If you've had no problems in regional training, you'll have no problems here (Atlas). I'm a big fan of AQP since an operator can train to address problems before they emerge, but initial new hire training is more or less the same as some others have said.

I can hear it now, "OK Boomer", but here is the real deal about airline training. You need to know your aircraft systems. You need to know your aircrafts limitations. You need to know how to properly fly a V1 and V2 engine failure. You need to know how to execute an emergency descent, You need to know how to fly a non-precision and precision approach. You must learn to function as a crew. Nothing has changed in 50+ years. If you can do these things competently you will pass and thrive at an airline. If you have a good attitude and need a little help you will most likely get it. If you are unable to master these skills in todays environment you will most likely be let go. AQP or Old School you still need to be able to do these things and it was, has been and hopefully always will be up to the individual to prepare properly. I've done both types of training plus some overseas that doesn't fit either category and it is all about individual preparation. Short of poor instruction/checking, which is thankfully rare, most pilots do fine regardless of the program.

I agree with this.

True Statement

Interesting side note about Atlas/Southern's 737 program - there is no systems class, it's all computer based and was of marginal utility for me. Best to use that as an introduction. I spent a lot of time in the books to get through the oral. Instructors were quite helpful, but a lot of that self study happens after your two weeks of regular face time is over. They're still happy to meet you during time off, but the ad hoc study sessions were discouraged as COVID got really bad in Miami.

The other 5Y/9S airframes aren't like this from what I've heard.

K4 - The “Slaughterhouse”
 

K4 is AQP that’s NOT AQP! They do their own thing and have the worst failure rate in the industry. Beware! The FAA let’s them get away with it... for now. There’s a reason they call it “The Slaughterhouse”! Good pilots from all walks get stuck in poor training.

And now the company told the negotiating committee to pound sand. Here comes another 6 year circus for a contract.

ALPA will simply inform the Kalitta MEC they have spent enough and take whatever is on the table.

How do I know? Because history doesn't repeat, it rhymes. In this case Kalitta rhymes with Atlas.

There is no doubt K4 has AQP. I have never heard anyone call it "The Slaughterhouse". The training is very fast, roughly 45 days for your initial training. I do believe they could add a week in there to help study time.

The Company did not tell the Negotiating Committee to pound sand. This is simply the next step to keep things moving and keep pressure on to get TA's from both sides.

Seems like your whining butt should go and search for another carrier? Let me guess, you are not a good pilot, and you are lazy with an attitude of entitlement. Of course it is the companies fault.

The slaughterhouse? Never heard it referred to that before. Not gonna lie, it was tough. I had a good sim partner and good classmates that literally met every day after class to study and chair fly. Could training be better? Sure, but if you try your best (and not blame others) then you’ll be able to cooperate and graduate.

Ati is old school . They want you to succeed so they’ll give you the tools to make it happen .

Never heard “slaughterhouse”, sounds pretty dramatic. Nobody will hold your hand through training, but if you are motivated and want it, you will pass.

Of course; ALPA can't have lowly ACMI guys getting better contracts than legacy guys.


have to keep the rivalry alive to prevent unification, and a repeat of the 1880 type of labor actions. Judges, Court Order, Threats,.... nothing stopped the strike, the workers just didn't care anymore. It took Federal Troops to break the strike, because the National Guard being made up of your neighbors somehow just couldn't get the job done (many accused them of siding with the strikers and putting on a show effort only, probably was true). Some more history (almost)

https://operationorange2011.wordpres...-the-end-game/

I'm not sure what to make of your contributions to APC, but let's say for now, color me skeptical.

First of all, ALPA doesn't need to elevate ACMI carriers above the Legacy carriers. But it would be well worth their time to bring them to parity, or at least close to parity. Guess what? ALPA could collect even more dues money like that. That said, ALPA's problem is actually an ideological one, not a financial one. They simply consider the outsource providers (ACMI and regional carriers) to be one step better than scabs.

Again, ask me how I know. Because that's what ALPA told Atlas back in the day.

Secondly, that link--it's quite dense--too much information for a casual Saturday afternoon. But I did have a look around. I'll say thanks, I wish I had seen it years ago. But it does seem to be somewhat outdated. Not sure if 2011 is the last time it was updated but it did refer to USAir East and West in the present tense. So I'm assuming it's not updated.

Specifically, there have been a couple court cases since then that would really affect some union strategy.

--2016 ABX strike over a major dispute/status quo violation by the company.

--2017 Injunction against Atlas Air Teamsters by the company.

Nevertheless, all of history is useful and should be studied by all union leadership. It's a shame we learn from history that we DON'T learn from history.

First you question my motives.... then in the next paragraph say exactly what I hinted at (you said it much more eloquently though). I would add that the goal is to raise everybody up, the old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats is true. So is you are only as strong as your weakest link. Similarly, a contract undefended is worthless. Finally, fail not to protect your brother, for next time it may be you the reaper comes for (that's my personal spin on the old "for whom the bell tolls...").

It has not been updated that I'm aware of. They did have some interesting theories, which based upon the Wisconsin teachers walkout/strike seem to indicate an illegal strike may not be so illegal if you're attending a demonstration exercising your first amendment rights.... even to the point of Doctors handing out doctors notes like candy on TV to anybody wanting one.... all subsequently upheld by the courts and nobody fired or terminated.
I think the operation orange goal was to get enough pilots committed to the idea, and all go to their state capitals, and DC, to protest instead of to work grinding the system to a halt. All companies, nationwide. Too bad it didn't catch on more.

The RLA and subsequent rulings, creation of various Boards and Mediation requirements have essentially killed strike threats and removed the single biggest stick organized labor held. That said, it will NEVER change playing by the rulebook. It will take action similar to the 1880's to force realistic change.

On the East/West fiasco, the one thing that was learned was that the only one to profit from it was the company. The pilots collectively gave up well over $1B in compensation while fighting over scraps for that many years.

There's always a deal to be made; but the Devil is always in the details....

One of the guys at my now current employer (but not at the time) used to run around the airport, basically accosting regional pilots and shoving those operation orange cards in our faces. Also lecturing us about how we need to fight for better contracts, etc. Which, naturally, is a GOOD point.

Meawhile he was still working under a bankruptcy contract with much relaxed scope, bankruptcy pay rates, etc etc etc.

Seemed funny he saw fit to parade around when he shoood have been focusing his energy inward and worries about his own house.

There's always those that will tell you how to fight the fire in your garage while totally ignoring their own burning house.

Well, I'm just playing along with your online persona.
:)
Nevertheless, good discussion. I do appreciate the points. Maybe another thread dedicated to these same issues would be a good idea.

And in the process a 1st class bag of feminine hygiene product.

I fly at a different carrier, but I have some friends at K4 who made it through without problems. I thought K4 had AQP already.

You mean Atlas? I don't think they have AQP.

​​​​​We don't!

That's pretty sad

Why is that sad? AQP in a perfect world is better than traditional training. ACMI is not a perfect world. They have multi pilot crews for one thing. You end up with a lot of FO/FO pairings. Not great for the FO in the left seat. AQP saves the company money which is why companies support it. Once the program matures it is great. At K4 there were some serious bumps in the road along the way to this successful outcome.

aqp is a joke compared to the training footprint of 8 sims pass or your fired. getting 25 sims and 120 hours of i o e to get you through is not the norm dude. be glad you didn't have to become a flight engineer if you even know what that is (assuming you are a millenial)

Sounds like World Airways (RIP.) ACMI is ACMI. Shoestring training budgets and rented sims.

Tread carefully.

AQP is no joke when properly implemented. The goal of training is surprisingly to train someone. Who knew right?
Now I certainly agree there are limits to how much a company should put into someone before cutting them loose. However the extended training someone gets is not synonymous with AQP.

One huge advantage to a mature AQP is that it highlights deficiencies within a group. For instance, if everyone sucks at missed approach procedures on the line, then recurrent AQP will focus on that. Lots of ASAP or FOQA data then the common denominator may not be the pilots but the way procedures are taught and understood. AQP aims to correct the problems. With new hires it aims to get training done. Yes actual training. Under the old school method it’s “be perfect on day one and if not hopefully you have a pillow to chew on cause this is gonna hurt”. New school is “here is where you need to improve so let’s focus on that”.

The whole idea is to make safer more proficient pilots. If a pilot cannot hack that in an allotted time then yes time to cut them loose.

K4 training is not perfect to be sure, but we own our 400 sims. The one we bought from Deltas used to be a complete piece, but we’ve classed it up a good bit.

Well that’s a good thing. 🍻

Eh, it's just another way to skin a cat. From what I've been told, we do have an AQP program ready to launch. We're just waiting on the "businessmen" to finish their childish negotiation games, so we can implement it in the new contract. At least that's what several instructors have said.

K4 does have AQP and it’s not difficult if you actually study. The ones who struggle do so because they want to be spoon fed and not put in the effort.

I'm at Altas. We have no AQP.

My understanding was K4 has it.

AQP is good. Unfortunately it's being held up over here.