Path to Atlas Employment
 

2000hr pilot here who's been working their first 135 IFR job (single pilot medevac) now for just under 6 months looking for career advice. After reading through hundreds of Atlas APC posts I thought I'd ask specifically what some of you Atlas pilots thought. I'm thinking of applying to Atlas in the Fall or Winter of 2024.

I'll be ready to try and take my career to the next level near the end of this year after my seasonal pilot job is finished. I should have about 2500 TT, 150 Multi, 600 Turbine PIC and 3 years part 135 experience. I'm looking to be based out of ANC and hoping to get into the 74 if possible.

After reading through all the posts here I think I would enjoy the pros and cons of Atlas and having ANC as my base would be preferred. I have a couple questions:

• Would the hours I'll have when I would be done with my seasonal job in November be competitive? (2500 TT, 150 Multi, 600 Turbine PIC )
• Is there a good window of time to apply to get a training date in the fall or early winter at Atlas?
• Would it be possible to work part time at my summer seasonal pilot job on my off days?
• Should I get my ATP CTP though Atlas before applying or go get my entire ATP through ATP Jets for example?

Lastly most of my professional flying so far has been VFR. I'll only have under 6 months of single pilot IFR before potentially applying to Atlas. I've read that without previous 121 experience or not much IFR experience I might be under qualified to apply to Atlas? Any insight is much appreciated.

Going from bush Alaska to a multi-crew Boeing is a big leap. It can be/has been done. However, you will have a very, very steep learning curve that will require max effort. Even though it would suck, I think going to a regional (not RAVN) for six months to get your ATP, a 121 training program under your belt, and a little bit of experience would make your transition to the Whale A LOT easier. Atlas will most likely always be hiring for ANC.

ANC is a garanteed first base for 74 new hire.
Like he said, that’s a Giant leap, pun intended.
Follow his advice, get on with a Regional, get some jet and IFR time. Speeds, SID/STAR, FMC are all things you’ve never worked with.
The 74 training program is not geared towards vertical hiring.
I came from a 73 and it was daunting.

I concur with TS. I have a single pilot EMS King Air background as well. Went to a DoD contract on bigger Multi TP's working a crew airplane before coming to Atlas. In retrospect, the uphill climb on the 74 would have been a lot less hair pulling if I had at least some background flying SIDs and STARs in the 121 jet world. It can be done, but I would bet you'd be happier and more confident hitting a regional for a few months. YMMV.

You're competitive and way above mins. I know a lot of 1500-1700TT bush guys that were hired into the 747/767. It's up to you to study and get through the program though. You might be offered the 767/737 instead, and those don't have an ANC base.

Apply. Worst that happens we say no and you try again later. Applying multiple times does NOT go against you at all.

Advice? Get to a regional yesterday. Doing more of what you're currently doing isn't improving your resume or knowledge base as much as getting a Part 121 jet type rating course, and IOE/LOE + line experience would do.

Apply to Atlas now. Let them decide. Right now you don't even exist. Update your resume at regular intervals (monthly or twice a month).

Check out what the regionals offer. Some offer quick upgrades if you have X (500??? 750, or 1000 hrs Part 135 time). Go there and you might be able to do 6-12 months as FO and then upgrade. That's a HUGE improvement over another 500 hrs of single (?) engine TPIC time.

Airlines like 500 and especially 1000 hrs TPIC time. But I also had a top guy tell me "we're not getting many of those guys. Or it's PC-12 TPIC time." Hs tone of voice wasn't impressed - seems like they'd prefer jet or at least large turboprop (ATR/Dash 8???) TPIC time.

After 500 hrs, or less, in a given job look into moving up the experience, size, speed, Part 135 vs Part 121, resume improvement ladder. Each step will improve your experience and make you better prepared for the follow on job.

Good luck.

While your advice is nice, unfortunately the regional market is not what it was a year ago. Barely anybody is hiring FOs, and even then class dates are pretty backed up. His time as a single pilot medevac also doesn't count towards 121 PIC mins.

Not sure where that is coming from, most every regional I know of is actively recruiting FOs. Especially if they have 135 turbine time. All the American subsidiaries need FOs now. Otherwise they still wouldn't be offering bonuses for it. Envoy and Skywest are still advertising for FOs with just ATP mins. They prefer DEC qualified, but they still need FOs

Envoy and Skywest are advertising but not hiring in any numbers, mainly only from their own cadet pipeline. Know a lot of 1500TT CFIs and 2500TT 135 guys that got the TBNT without a phone screen. PSA and Piedmont are very selective too, especially if you have high time and they think you'll jump ASAP.

I can confirm this with a first hand account.

Thank you for the advice. I definitely assumed going from a 135 King Air to a 747 would be quite the stretch but thought maybe with the couple STARS and SIDs I've done it would be just a lot of studying. The regional consensus makes sense.

I do wonder if I could try and get a hold of the Atlas study material and use the 6+ months of time to really prepare myself. These 121 jobs seem to be all about getting on that seniority list as soon as you can.

This is true, so why not apply now. Apply to the regionals as well now while you wait for our call. Thank your seasonal employer for the opportunity they provided and gracefully depart for more money, better benefits, and a permanent position. Ask for the 767 or 737 and gain some ME Jet experience on the domestic side before taking a 900,000 pound airplane arcoss the planet into a country you've never heard of before with controllers you can hardly understand. We have a short 24-month bidding block for new hires that will fly by. You could be in a 747 course and ANC based by the summer of 2026.

The only downside is you are told no because your hours are low, and you have to wait until next spring to re apply. But if right now you are waiting until next winter to apply, that isn't a big delay.

Good points. With your suggestion apply without my ATP then?

Yes, you can apply without it. I know several from my class and later that did their ATP through Atlas.
It seems the company will open a lot of doors if they believe you would be a good fit. Worst they can say is "not yet."

Get a resume improving job. Doing more of whatever you're doing isn't moving the needle much except get TT....when you STILL might have to get MORE TT tracking down jet, multi-pilot crew, or Part 135/121 experience.

Obviously getting to your #1 major airline of choice is #1 on your list. The reality is it isn't happening. So keep reaching for the NEXT rung because you can't reach the TOP rung on your current trajectory/path. Cape Air? Then Part 135 small jet? Then Part 135 medium or even better 'super midsize' jet(!), regional Part 121, ACMI, major airline 121, Big 3 airline.

If your next job will take you without your ATP, and you will get your ATP in training, start Monday.

No.
Worse is washing out of class or failing a ride.
HR is not omnipotent.
Washing out on OE is a real thing.
Sounds overly dramatic but at night with weather over a country where they only speak the bare basic ICAO RT English is not the place to learn how to slow down a heavy jet on a STAR.
Coming to think of it, neither are LAX/JFK/ORD in dat VFR with a light breeze.
You get the point.
Prepare for success.
Best of luck.


https://www.ihmvcu.org/images/defaul...rsn=22a0199a_0

Apply and if they say yes then start studying. The classes at Atlas are not that difficult and imo it's better to go in with an empty mind than to go in thinking "this wasn't how we did it at my regional."

Let me ask you something:
Did you take you checkride for your Private when you hit minimum hrs or when you were ready? How about instrument? Commercial?
Did you ever ignore your CFI and just scheduled the DPE yourself with the idea of just winging it?
WTF would you recommend someone else do this with much more at stake?
121 is a different way of flying, it’s a different universe and the OP has ZERO experience in this universe.
Yeah some have made it, some have won the lottery too.
FFS go get a type and spend 6-9 months learning what this side is all about.

He's met the minimum qualifications. We're not the judge of his abilities, the schoolhouse is. Your analogies are as if he's going into Miami and taking a type ride raw without any training or help, when our training program is robust, has plenty of extra padding for people who are less experienced, and is no less different than a non-AQP regional.

Maybe when you went through training and took your type it was different. The culture has changed now, and for the better.

The vast majority of our new hires make it, who made you the judge so that this guy can't?

HR is just a numbers game, you either meet the magic number today or you don’t.
Hours wise he may make the cut but experience wise?
HR is not the “will this guy make it filter”.
You’re not incorrect but if we’re both wrong that doesn’t make a right.
Let’s agree to disagree.
My vote is for some 121 experience prior to applying.
A training fail or voluntary withdrawal permanently stays on your record.
Teaching the part how to fly a jet is not part of IOE.

Honestly, you both bring great points on both sides of the fence. Now they have to decide for themselves based on great advice from the both of you. Parents can't do your life for you, but they had better prepare you or at least give sensible advice. We don't want these folks to fail we want them to succeed and in the end the ball is in their court. We've all seen the successes and failures of rushed judgment in life and the consequences can be minimal or at times fatal in every endeavor. Anyone whose questions parallel the answers given by Astray and Tired Soul must understand they are looking out for you. Everyone has "OneLife" it's yours, do your best!!!

Tired makes a good point. I assume anyone who's applying feels like they are ready. But, as Tired says, there's not a whole lot of sympathy if you over-extend and screw yourself up. Know yourself. If you are confident in your abilities, apply. This is complex mosaiac of tasks, each of which is a simple challenge that anybody can wrap their heads around. It's just placement and prioritization of these tasks that wraps people up. This is why some people with limited experience succeed and others, with years of wide-body, international jet time struggle.

If you're coming out of an air ambulance background or single-pilot 135 night freight background, you're already putting your puzzle pieces together and figuring out what's important and what can wait for a given trip.

One of the many paradoxes of this industry is that you have to be enough of a confident jerk (I say jerk, because there will always be someone who will tell you you're unqualified to hold your seat. It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done.) to know you can take a shot at something but humble enough to trim yourself back to know when you need ease away from a bad course of action. I say take the shot, learn the crap, skip the fire pit and breakfast clubs.

How did you end up doing medevac if you have 2000hr as of now? CAMTS requires 2000hrs TT 1k PIC

For atlas, I don't think you will have any issues with the flying or decision making coming from single pilot IFR world, the issue will be "cooperate to graduate" don't ask or wonder why they do training things the way they do, don't get bent out of shape over the non CFI inexperienced sim guys, it's procedural memory stuff. If you managed to not get yourself killed single pilot turbine, you'll be fine

Based on the hiring I have seen, you probably can get any fleet you want, your issue will be lack of a ATP, however they are even giving those out

Apply and see where it goes

This debate is all academic for everyone but OP, but I think that OP would do well to go to one of the Atlas airframes that are geared towards new hires. We had a couple CFIs in my 767 class. They made it. The 737, from what I've heard (but not what I personally experienced a few years ago) is just as geared towards new hires with no jet background these days, if not more so. That said, my 767 sim partner didn't make it and he had a fair amount of Part 91 jet time. He's not flying the last I heard, so the danger of getting bounced from the 121 world is real. I acknowledge that. I also agree with the statement that "you've got to be arrogant enough to believe you belong here."

I would think two years in a 737 or 767 doing domestic amazon flying will do a lot for OP's proficiency and confidence. And it's two years seniority (and just as importantly, experience) towards 747 ANC with domestic FAA NAS training wheels on. Atlas locks up a pilot that presumably wants to be there for the long haul. Seems like a win-win-win in my book.

I'm confused so a CFI made it but a jet guy didn't in the 76 class?

What was the CFIs background, I mean I'm typed in few jets and have flown a ton of stuff and I'm a CFI, or by CFI did you mean to at he went from flying 172s and the like as a CFI to atlas?


I would say if the jet guy was used to more streamlined FSI type training, the crazy paint mixer Atlas training program could throw one for a loop, presuming he didn't just self eject

Stuff like that happens a lot. The reasons are many. A lot of the new CFI types go all-out in terms of effort. Somebody on their twelfth company is often burnt out. Not saying that's what happened in any particular case, but it's not uncommon to see experienced people struggle while inexperienced people don't. I also want to be clear in that I'm not saying experience is bad, etc. I'm just saying the pitfalls from one background to another are different, but they're there for everybody.

A CFI that's been flying a 6 pack might have better chances at the 767 than a jet guy that's been staring at glass for years tbh..

for many, myself included, glass or steam its all the same thing

Effort goes a long way with Atlas and it guarantees nothing, but it is truly evident to the instructors who prepared and put the time in and those that didn't. Sometimes hurdles are too great in life, but never give up and re-attack. In the end it's an individual sport to be typed, but cooperate and graduate goes the distance. Ask questions, get answers and apply - work the crap out of the sim. Unfortunately as Elevation mentioned, burning out is a thing. Hopefully, the hunger still exists or at least recharge extremely well before entering most anything.

"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." Calvin Coolidge

As said before nothing is guaranteed, but at least do better than giving it a shot - Do your Best!

Spot on, As a767 instructor through the last hiring shortage, we ended up taking just about anyone with a pulse. Very few of the really low time candidates set the world on fire. The occasional one would surprise you. Most really struggled and the training footprint was extended and extended, all the while daily discussions were held between standards and management and Check Airman about letting another one go or giving them another round trip or two. It wasn't just teaching them how to fly a 400k jet, it some cases it was teaching them just how to fly. When you are that far behind, there is no muscle memory to fall back on because you just don't have the experience yet. Going to a regional or small 135 jet operator is a great way to start.

The CFIs were both on their first jet and from bigger Part 141 schools. Straight out of 172s if I remember correctly with some sort of stop for an unrestricted ATP/jet familiarization.

Don’t want to give any personal info away, but my take on my partner (Part 91 guy) - wasn’t used to the pace and flow of a 121 training course and a few hiccups caused them to enter a self-reinforcing self-doubt loop of compounding poor performance. Atlas gave them a lot of chances, including a third shot at the checkride. They were fairly experienced.

I don’t personally know how FSI compares, but I’ve gathered from others over the years that the stock non-AQP course at most any airline is another cut above in terms of level of both difficulty and jeopardy.

Unfortunately the regionals are barely hiring right now.

What do you think is going to happen when Boeing gets their act together, and are finally permitted to ramp up deliveries?

Our training has not been adjusted for our hiring practices. There's a lot of basic stuff that we used to assume people know. That's stuff which we don't teach. Once they are in a learning deficit, offering extra sims and extra trips only allows them to build confidence; It doesn't fill in fundamental gaps in learning. So it's natural that candidates who meet the basic assumptions that are made in our FOTM will perform better than candidates that don't. Adjusting our course material is long term project, and I've griped about that issue before.

Any candidate needs to be able to look at our training, break down how all the blocks fit together and see where they need to build themselves up. Sure we can teach you everything, but only if you meet the basic assumptions that are built into our training program. Those basic assumptions are not spelled out in words, but you can read them in what we don't teach (meteorology, for example). This is why there's debate about whether it's good to read ahead. It's good to know if you have to learn something to get through, but it's not helpful to obsess over momentary vs. alternate action switches. The other thing any candidate needs is the ability to recover from being rattled. Something, sometime is going to get under your skin. Having the ability to re-center yourself and avoid a doubt-fixation-performance loop is critical. That's something you have to be able to do on your own.

This is why, over the years, we've heard that regional pilots, corporate pilots, prop pilots, 135 backgounds, or whatever other candidate profile simply won't make it through training. That's nonsense. What we do is teachable, and no special skills or intellect are required. As long as a candidate is honest with themselves about those 2 skills, they'll make it. When we hire from other airlines we're dealing with people who have already done this type of thing once. When we hire from CFIs, we're the first time they've had "real consequnces" instruction. It's natural that we're going to see different success rates. Nobody should be surprised. I like the CFI candidated we bring aboard. I'm happy to take them across to Europe in the 767. That means at least something is going right in hiring and training right now.

Of course. However, fly nothing but glass for 10 years and you won’t waltz right back into steam and have nearly the same proficiency…not even close. I don’t care who you are.

Does anyone have info on what the payscales are like beyond year 1 FO? All that APC has on the Atlas page for FO's is $97/ hr and nothing about year 2 and beyond? Also is that CA payscale accurate for CA? The top says around $450/hr for top of the scales. Just looking for confirmation. :)

$450/hr? I’ll take some of that. 🙏

edit: That page is all wrong for some reason.

Everyone's training programs have been adjusted, or Atlas is not hiring low time no time pilots. Simply putting the inexperienced pilots in the 737 is a decision that ensures a better pass rate. That is a conscious training decision.