Breaking Training Contract Help
 

I am going to break my contract with my 135. Its a realllly big amount. Am I screwed or is there actually always a way to get out? One reason I am, originally it was suppose to be half the time even as they advertised on their job posting on their website but when I already turned down other positions and moved for the job, boom double the time... Any good attorney recommendations? hopefully I can find one that has never had a client pay out.

Thanks!

Couple of questions:
Why do you want to break it?
Better opportunities?
This company not your ‘thing’ for whatever reason?
What’s so bad about sticking it out?
Some type ratings are really expensive so what kind of money are we talking about?
Don’t fall into the trap of ending up paying your lawyer the same amount.
Make sure you want to burn this bridge as most wont hesitate to call you a bad name when your next employer calls them.
You may just have to man up and sit it out.

When I flew for a large freight company I knew they wouldn’t come after me. They paid me so ********* they knew I was too broke to pay up.

I’m thinking if that company is based in Florida it may not be enforcible but they may refer it to a collection agency and that could ruin an otherwise perfectly nice day.

Ill send you a private message with the info as to stay anonymous etc..

they would just make a payment plan. This contract is $50K+

Is English your second language?

You signed a contract, agreeing to pay for your training or repay the training costs in the event that you failed to honor your commitment to the company, and now you want to dishonor that commitment, correct?

Did you get something in return for this commitment, such as a type rating?

Boom?

What was supposed to be "half the time?" The training period, or the duration of the commitment to the employer? If your training took longer than anticipated, so be it. If you committed to a time period and have fulfilled that time period (a year is customary, but some agreements extend as long as three--and the Chinese routinely use commitments out to 99 years), then you've fulfilled your contract. Are you trying to say that the company is keeping you longer than the term of the contract? It sounds more like you're attempting to say that you think the training took too long, and you want to go somewhere else without fulfilling your contract.

Do you understand that the reason that employers have these contracts is dishonest pilots who take the training and run?

If you are in a situation in which the employer has not met the terms of the contract, or is operating dangerously or illegally, you may have standing to leave prior to fulfilling your end of the bargain.

Apparently you thought it work signing the document to get what you wanted. What has changed?

What’s your reputation worth? That’s what your selling here. Pay the bill and move on or ride it out.

GF

Yeah, a bad reference from a previous employer, bad credit, or a lawsuit filed against you are not indicators that the best employers like to see. If you get sued, that is a public record FOREVER, and there's nothing to keep a potential employer from accessing and considering that info (regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit).

It was suppose to be 18 months as their post said. after turning down 4 other jobs and spending the money to move for the job, they slapped a 2.5 year contract. I had no choice but to sign because I would be out of a job, and spent the money saved for the move. training was fast, was a type rating and I got off IOE 2nd trip. They also guaranteed at 1500 for upgrade which didn't happen. thats why I do not want to stay for those reasons. Also the hires just before me had a 20-25k contract they gave me a 53K contract. Last day of contract balance - 25K and first page of contracts states the employee balance is due on last day of contract' which never happens but they could potentially still request that.

I am at 1 year now. Currently with offers to Regionals.

Your basis for breaking the contract is that it wasn't what the advertisement said?

What the ad said is irrelevant. What you signed is relevant. Very, very relevant. It's a legal document and you signed it.

What the new-hires before you had for a contract is irrelevant. They signed it. Not you. What you signed is relevant. Very, very relevant. It's a legal document, and you signed it.

You're asking legal questions and talking very generally. When you write that "they also guaranteed at 1500 hours for upgrade," what do you mean?

You really think that you should be automatically upgraded, regardless of need, your skill or ability or aptitude for the position? Does your contract guarantee in writing that at 1,500 hours, come hell or high water, no matter what may happen or no matter the company needs or your skill, proficiency, ability, or fitness for the job, you'll be upgraded, without exception? If so, that's some guarantee.

Does the contract say that you'll be eligible for upgrade after 1,500 hours?

Did you know about the contract before you quit your job, pulled up stakes, and moved? Would it not have been a wise idea to review the contract BEFORE making a commitment of that magnitude?

You didn't like the contract, but you signed it. You got what you wanted. You got your type rating (which has value and a cost attached) and you don't want to give the service to which you agreed. Your position is that you haven't been upgraded and that an advertisement indicated you'd have a shorter contract, neither of which are particularly relevant to the issue of you having signed the contract.

You're asking the legalities here, so be specific.
What does the contract spell out for upgrade?
What are the terms of the contract?
Is the contract pro-rated?
Does the contract stipulate separation conditions? Under what conditions can you separate? What conditions can the company cause you to separate, and what does the contract stipulate for each?

It's very hard to understand what you're attempting to say...but it sounds like you suggested that after the completion of your contract, you're expected to pay out 25,000. I find that very difficult to believe, which suggests that either you've being too vague and imprecise in your description, or you really don't know what the terms of the contract are.

Have you approached the company about release from your contract?

Yes. You DID have a choice. You could have sued THEM for breach of contract, but you CHOSE to accept the contract revision.

Look, they took advantage of your naïveté, not getting what you believe to have been the original offer signed before you made the move, and that may be reprehensible, but YOU are going to be the one losing big time if they tell future employers you reneged on a contract that you signed.

Unless there is a safety issue involved, either pay off your contract or serve your contractual obligation. Either way, learn from this.

I signed one for two years at my last position, prorated by the year. I kinda laughed at it, thinking I could probably get a new employer to buy it out or the new salary would pay it. I didn’t plan on leaving anyway and I didn’t. Yes, you might get a new employer to buy it out IF they get the benefit, i.e. they need a typed pilot.

Years later, now Chief Pilot, I had a Pilot who signed one for a Global TR. After a year, he wanted to leave, which I understood considering all the factors. Now, about that contract. I pushed tearing it up with the Boss, who while sympathetic, was insisting on payment. I spoke with the new employer and asked for them to pay it. After all, they wanted a typed and experienced pilot and would be paying about half the cost of buying one. No dice there, they weren’t the sharpest managers around, either. I told my guy, here’s a payment deal, sign over the amount owed out of your first year’s bonus and done. Also, in my humblest opinion, you’re making a mistake from what I can see. Deal done, payment made, he can’t stand the job and leaves.

Be careful what what you wish for, you might get it.

GF

BTW: nobody, anywhere is guaranteed an upgrade to PIC—you earn it with ability and professional skills. One of which is integrity.

True story time:

Once upon a time in a galaxy far and far away I flew with a captain who applied and applied and applied across the universe but rarely got an interview and never got hired.
Rumor was this pilot was radioactive.
So I googled the name......:
Top hit was a Facebook page of the individual and second hit was

“Captain Solo vs DeathStar Airlines”......and the lawsuit was lost.

Any HR department across the MilkyWay came across this info about 3 sec after receiving a resume.
This Captain will be stuck till the end of times flying a pirate ship for Scumbag Air.

I served my promised year and got into the escape capsule.
True story.

Times are good now, very good.
When famine comes back around again and airlines can go back to cherry picking this stuff will come back and haunt you.
Trust me I’ve seen it.

You can probably get a job nowadays that would pay the bond to get a rated 135-current Pilot.

GF

Well, you could add up all the time you were performing services for the company and on property and send them a bill for time you were working and not paid...

Without any corroborating evidence that would be hard to prove.

Not a chance. No contract existed to breach. If you're asserting that the advertisement represented a contract, or the invitation to move or job offer represented a verbal (or other) contract, you'd have a very hard time making that stick.

The only tangible contract is the one the original poster signed. Any other implied duty would be a legal battle that he'd be very unlikely to win.

I will try to negotiate paying for the type rating that’s for sure. I’m going to see what we can work out that’s the plan. But we’ll see what they say. Hopefully they will work with me I also brought them multiple pilots to help them. Hopefully they take that into consideration. Yes it was my choice at the end of the day but had to sign in distress as I turned down multiple offers and spent money to come here thinking it’s what they told me and they switched it all when I got here. I would have been couple thousands loss and no job if I didn’t agree.

I’m not trying to be that guy that doesn’t care and just wants to blow off a contract but what they did was wrong like a bait and switch and I did bring it up at first but they said “well that’s what it is” type answer.

No there’s not much proof except the posting on their website even 4 months after I was hired their new posting still kept saying 18 months but when people came, 2.5 years.

How long have you been working for this company?

^^^^^^ This is spot on

Actually there could be a case here. If the advertised terms were changed and the OP was stuck between a rock and a hard place, it could be argued that the contract was signed under duress. But there better be clear evidence of it, and/or verifiable evidence that others were given better deals.

Some lessons in life are free and some are not.
Life and learn.

No, it really couldn't.

50k is a lot of scratch. What airplane was this? Global/G-machine?

The regionals which had training contracts had learned to have applicants sign the contract at the time of the job offer. They had found that making them sign the contract on day one of ground school constituted duress because the new-hire had already quit his old job and such contracts were then hard to enforce. This was a situation where everybody knew darn well that there was going to be a training contract and what the terms were, but it wouldn't hold up in court if the employer had no hard evidence to prove that the applicants knew before day one.

That was a loophole. In this case I think it might be legit.

I would say he has a case at least worth discussing with a lawyer if he has docs showing certain conditions were advertised, but more onerous conditions were applied after he had quit his old job.

If that can resolved with a phone call from a lawyer, all good. But again it might be hard on your future employment opportunities if you end up involved in a public record lawsuit. Gotta weigh cost vs. benefit on that...

What type of gun was it, I wonder, that they held to his head during that signing?

It must have been very scary.

I didn't say he was going to win. Just refuting his assertion that what he did was somehow justified by circumstances beyond his control. There were other options to signing that contract.

A contract signed under duress is not enforceable.

If the Company wants to collect show them what was originally offered to you versus the revised contract they actually put in front of you after you had already quit your job, turned down other offers, relocated, etc, etc. Tell them you signed their revised contract under duress and that not only is it not enforceable but you are entitled to other damages as well - perhaps multiples of what they are asking. Tell them you would be reluctant but forced to pursue these options with your attorney if they wish to proceed.

In your correspondence, copy your hiring manager, HR and the Company's legal department and ask for a response in how they would like to proceed.

He signed the contract.

Guess who has the burden of proof.

Unemployment? Could be problematic if you have a family.

Most of us who have been around for very long have been through a furlough, downsizing, closing, merger, yada, yada, and have done it with families. To suggest that one is forced into the job because of X is an excuse. He signed the contract to get what he wanted. He got it. Now he wants out.

I showed up at an operator for a job. No mention of a contract. I'd already separated from the other job. Moved to a new city. Ready to go. Day two the CEO entered the room, stack of paper in hand. Here's a 18 month contract, sign it or hit the bricks.

Bye-bye said I. Hold on a moment, said he. I don't do that.

I showed up at an interview for a company. No mention of paying for training. Not found. In between one of the interviews I caught wind of the scheme, so when they shuttled me into the interview room and the interviewer asked if I had any questions I said yes, indeed. I hear you're charging for training, with a bond. Yes, he admitted, we are, but it won't apply to you, given your experience. They had a cutoff point, and I wouldn't have been required to sign. Did I have a problem with that, I was asked. Why, yes?

Three of us walked out, caught the hotel shuttle to the airport, and left.

Homey don't play that, as the saying went, and homey went home (where one hangs one's hat. It's a mobile hat).

A few times over the years I've been told do this, sign that, agree to something, if you wish to keep your paycheck. At times it was with young ones, at times it was in a place where the employer might have thought he had me over a barrel. I've been known to say pound sand, take a hike, Sayonara, and a few other things, some less polite. I even had an employer hold me by the throat and slam me against a hangar wall when I was a 18 year old ag pilot...told me if I didn't agree I'd get a shotgun in my mouth. Unlike the original poster, I really did have the proverbial gun to the head, but unlike the original poster, I understand the concept of "no." It still works today.

If you want to call fear of saying "no" to be duress, by all means, glob onto that excuse, but it doesn't impress me, and you may have a hard time selling it to the judge.

Once I was asked to sign a one year contract after I returned from recurrent.
I said no thank you I served my (initial) year and I’m still here with every intention of staying.
They asked again after my upgrade training and I said no thank you that’s the cost of doing business.
My best advice is still to sit it out and take it as a learning moment.
You hear the sirens calling your name and you lay awake at night seeing seniority lists floating by no doubt.
Your reputation and your credit score will thank you.
I’m not saying they will but if you bail they have the option to send it to collection and collection agencies...well they couldn’t care less is the polite way of saying it.

You and I know that, I have about $500K in fairly liquid assets for that reason alone... enough to switch to another career, in no particular hurry. But maybe not everyone is in that position when they're fairly young.

Dayuuum what course you on....
Ramsey 2.0?

If you don’t have a substantial emergency fund in aviation, you’re a “dead man walking”, so to speak, I know a couple of EAL guys that spent like drunken sailors right up til the end, believing it could never happen. One hung himself and not he wasn’t the only one. I flew with several guys that were “just along for the ride; I don’t know of anything else to do, this is all I know”. Often, they were guys hired in the Sixties with a 150 hours and no other skills. I vowed never to put myself in that hole.

Secondly, if, as speculated, this is a Global type rating, dude, you can make $1500-$1800 per day after agency fees. Paid off in six months and have a back up plan.


GF

That must be nice.

I never did.

In fact I walked away from an employer over maintenance and other issues with a young wife, newborn, and two dogs, and zero in the bank, zero in the pocket, no food reserves, and a tank of gas. There were only two other ways it would have gone; his aircraft would have killed me, or I'd have killed him.

I still wonder what the food would have been like in Cell Block C.

Well yeah, if it's unsafe.

But it took me a while to save up the reserves... four jobs between the wife and I, for 20 years.

Save. The key word. But to some people, it's a word they can't comprehend.

Many years ago (pre 911) I knew a senior pilot for one of the majors. God alone knows what he was making as a 747 Captain flying mainly US to Japan. He had a big house on serious acreage, ALL the toys, boats (cruise and speed), bikes (dirt and street), two different aircraft (beech Debonair and Citabria), and several gun safes full of ordnance....

His airline was permitted to go on strike - and they did for all of two weeks before Northwest settled. He had to sell the Debonair and the Harley at a deep discount o raise the money to pay the mortgage and credit card bills.

Dude lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't save a dime, counting on his pension to see him through when the music finally stopped. That doesn't generally work well - it didn't for the Delta folks.

So I tell anyone that I fly with that asks...

Don't be that guy.

I'd really like to know more about the operation. What the type rating was, and specifically - did both pilots require a type rating for the insurance or the ops specs of the operation.

The contract could be unenforceable for lack of consideration. (this also applies to promissory notes)

If the company/airline/operation requires (by their own choosing) that both pilots be trained to a certain standard...then the training is not for your benefit, but for the benefit of the company.

Call a lawyer that specializes in business contracts.