Published missed or fly the pattern?
 

Alright I've been with the regionals now for three years. Flown the Saab, EMJ, CRJ.

I have always briefed my approaches by saying "...And in case of the missed we'll follow the published up to xxx feet, unless otherwise instructed by the tower..."

In the three years I have been here I have never had any captain question me on this. But the captain I am flying with this month questioned my brief.

We were told to expect the visual to the runway. And he questioned my by saying "well since were going to be given the visual then we will climb to traffic pattern altitude and fly the pattern." And I was like well were still on an IFR flight plan. When were given the visual they don't say IFR canceled, squak 1200, contact tower.

So this is my question...: If your on an IFR flight plan(as all 121 carriers are) and your given a visual approach, and you go missed, does ATC expect you to follow the published cuz ur still on an IFR flight plan, or do they expect you to climb to TPA and fly a normal box pattern? I say you gotta follow the published, but what do you guys say? Also were in the FAR's does it substantiate your thoughts? Thanks! I wanna get hard FAR proof to show my captain he is wrong.

(Oh, after re reading this. When I say missed approach I mean you have to go around for some reason, but its completely visual conditions)

Hi!

If you're flying an approach and the airport is IMC, you will fly the missed.

If the airport is VMC, you will fly the pattern.

We brief, if a visual, I will remain in the pattern with tower.

I have been sent around twice by the tower in VMC. They told/expected us to fly the traffic pattern.

Regardless, you WILL tell tower you're going around, and then follow instructions.

And, if you're flying a visual to an uncontrolled field, ATC wants you to cancel IFR, and then they will tell U to squawk 1200.

cliff
GRB

Most visual approaches are not charted, so they do not have a published missed. If you are doing an ILS to a visual, the ILS published missed would probably be safe, but if it's severe clear you have no idea what other traffic issues exist. You cannot assume that you can safely do the missed for the ILS, BC, LOC, or VOR for that runway.

Fly straight out (terrain permitting) and talk to tower. If you go lost comms, fly the most sensible pattern and try to get comms back (look for light gun signals).

If the airport is VMC, you will fly the pattern.

i agree with that statement. im curious as to why you are worried about it if you are vfr on an ifr flight plan. personally i would follow the captains instructions unless hes endangering your life. why do you want to fly the missed approach rather than tpa anyway. im not trying to be threatening im just curious so i can learn for future reference when i get into a career

Because the entire missed is pre-programmed into the FMS. After pressing the TOGA buttons the advancing the thrust levers forward, all you have to do is hit the nav button and watch it follow the magenta lines. Its just a lot easier thats all.

I too have been sent around by the tower in VMC, albeit only once. And the towers response was to fly the pattern at 3000'. But here is the problem I have with that. Patterns can be found on VFR Terminals/Sectionals or the the AFD. But we as airline pilots do not have access to either of those. So... At airports that have special noise abadment procedures, or airports that only use left/left traffic, or airports that have non standard patterns or any of that stuff, how are we supposed to know what is correct in the absence of tower instructions.

Because of this I always brief my ILS to visuals, or visuals backed up by the ILS, to do the published missed.

Just take note that if you are flying a visual approach and backing it up with a ILS, the controllers have no idea you going to use the ILS Missed (or VOR, NDB, or GPS missed for that matter) if you have to go around. Expect to make some phone calls if you make a immediate left turn towards a holding pattern when they expect you to fly right traffic around the pattern.

When you are reading up on the FARs, please take a quick look at a book on the English language. If we are going to claim that we are a group of professionals, we should at least have a basic grasp of the language. If you sound as intelligent as you type, I would probably question everything you tell me as a captain.

Tha bak of my certifakat sez english proficient butt sumtimes i wunder

This is my exact problem. How do I know that its a right pattern? Maybe its a left pattern? Maybe you have to extend upwind to a certain point before turning cross wind? We dont have any info at all from out Jepps to indicate what a VFR pattern is at the airport.

Fly straight out until the tell tower tells you what to do. If you go lost comms, then you are justified in using common sense to chose a pattern...don't cross the upwind of other active runways. This is why we land outboard, launch inboard.

This is what I was wondering. It isn't like we are lost comms in this scenario. You're on a visual approach and are talking to the tower. You get some type of close in wave-off for whatever (a million reasons) and in my experience tower will be fairly directive in what they want you to do; but if not - continue to fly upwind and ask the tower. Good discussion though because to tell the truth if I was on a visual approach and ended up going missed for whatever reason I never would have considered flying the instrument missed approach procedures! Something else to think about now.

USMCFLYR

I have a similar question: You're flying into an uncontrolled field, on an IFR flight plan. The airport is VMC so you request the visual, but you stay on the IFR flight plan (i.e. you don't cancel and keep your squawk code). ATC tells you to switch to CTAF and cancel once you're safely on the ground. While on CTAF, you execute a go-around for whatever reason. As previously mentioned, I assume you will fly the pattern for another try but is it required to contact Center and advise them of your intentions (i.e. G/A, staying in pattern for another attempt)?

From a pilot's perspective, a visual approach would seem like you can do whatever you need to without telling Center because you're maintaining VMC. But from a controller's perspective, with traffic following in or just the fact that they're seeing something they're not used to seeing on their scope, would probably want to know what the pilot's intentions are?

What are your thoughts?

Two comments, the first one pertaining to the original thread: If you have been cleared for a visual approach, flying a published missed may take you back into IMC, and you have no longer have a clearance for flight in IMC, only visual.

Reference the IFR visual clearance to the uncontrolled field, your primary concern is your visual pattern and landing while using CTAF for situational awareness and making advisory calls to other traffic. If single pilot I would not consider switching away from CTAF. With two pilots I would consider a call to the controller if convenient.

Joe

At an uncontrolled field you own the airspace while on an IFR flight plan until you cancel (or they locate the wreckage).

You can do a VFR traffic pattern, a circle-to-land maneuver, or a published missed at your discretion. You need to advise ATC about the missed because you will leave the airspace. You do not need to advise them of the circle or VFR pattern, although it would be nice to do so if someone else is waiting for you to cancel.

Cleared for the Visual is not clearance for the Missed approach.

And, if you read AIM 5-5-11 you'd be reminded that radar service is automatically terminated when you are directed to change frequencies on a visual approach. (as it also reminds you in 5-4-22h)

And, 5-4-22e is explicit that there is no MAP for a Visual approach. So, if you wind up going around, contact ATC asap for further clearance.

Barring additional info-pattern is normally flown w/left hand turns.
W/ parallel rwys, turn for a left/right pattern to avoid overflight of the other rwy

So? What does termination of radar services have to do with whether you fly a missed approach? Radar services are terminated explicitly in many situations on an approach when using a SIAP. The only thing that AIM quote is telling you is that ATC doesn't have to say the words "radar services terminated" for them to be terminated on a visual when you leave the frequency that is providing radar services (which seems pretty obvious anyway).

Termination of radar services does not mean cancellation of IFR.

Aside from that, let's try a scenario: You accept a visual approach in marginal conditions (why could be it's own thread but it's pretty much a given for this one). The airport is in the boonies, non-towered, well below radar coverage, and even below communications coverage.

Are you saying that the AIM is telling us to flounder around in the clouds until we make contact with a Center frequency rather than follow the missed approach for the runway we were going to land visually on?

I think rickair is exactly right on the options available.

I've got a real problem with this. Granted, when a go-around is issued by tower, they almost always follow with an exiting instruction, "Dmbass 1234 go around, fly runway heading maintain 2300 ft, contact departure 123.45"
Even when it is a pilot initiated go around, the controller will usually come back with an instruction after the go around call is readback. However, things do get busy for controllers too and if I call a go around, dont hear from tower, i am NOT going to just fly a pattern....what if i am landing on the center? I have no idea who's departing the L or R! Then again, I would be as forceful as I could to get an instruction, but I think it is reasonable to fly a published missed in this situation, especially if I were to lose comms.

Rickair has it IMO. Visuals are non-published(as there is also no MAP either), and it's the pilots responsibility for all terrain and obstacle clearances after that point, including if a go-around/MAP is going to happen.

As far as conflicting traffic, you probably are going around for that reason right? You as the PIC need to make that call, and it is highly circumstantial.

As far as uncontrolled, I never contact approach again unless I'm needing to be cleared to another destination(say the rwy condition just doesn't look safe for whatever reason). When you call field in sight, you are basically promising you will stay clear of clouds etc... So there shouldn't be any issues in that regards, but I'm sure it happens more than I'd like to think.

To really solve this issue, does anyone have an ATC contact at one of the major airports? Might be a good question to ask. Honestly I don't see too many situations where you are not going to be able to:
A. transmit and get a new clearance within 10 seconds,

B. just go rwy heading, get to a safe altitude, and then still make contact with the tower. They will know something is up by the time you hit 500AGL IMO.

IFR Clearance + Visual Approach =/= Missed Approach Procedure
 

Don't confuse a flight plan with a clearance, or IMC with IFR. A visual approach is a legitimate clearance while on an IFR flight plan. When given clearance to fly a Visual Approach, there is no missed approach procedure published. Consequently, if you go around for whatever reason, you are still conducting a visual maneuver on an IFR flightplan.

Given that you are on an IFR flight plan and cleared for a visual approach, your first action after the go-around would be to climb to the traffic pattern altitude. Absent instructions from the tower, you'd likely fly the traffic pattern for another attempt at landing. With instructions from the tower, you'd likely do the same. Therefore, it's not unrealistic to brief this plan along with your approach briefing.

Again, don't confuse IMC with IFR, or meteorological conditions with flight rules. One poster above suggested that the visual pattern would be best because it would keep you from flying back into clouds. That may be the circumstance, but it is not relevant. The fact is, the procedure would apply if the skies were clear with unlimited visibility -- there is no IFR Missed Approach Procedure on the "back end" of a visual approach. Clearance for the ILS is also clearance for the Missed Approach Procedure. Clearance for the Visual approach is not. One visual maneuver would be followed by another visual maneuver.





Now, taking into account the inference in your post that a tower is in play in your particular scenario, I would consider the following as part of the approach briefing.


.

No, what I am telling you is that AIM is telling you to not accept a visual if you are going to flounder around in the clouds.

YOUR scenario is how YOU might choose to fly. Personally, if the conditions are marginal, I will never accept a visual. I have in the past, and no doubt will in the future, told ATC that I am unable to accept the visual.

The question is not about non-tower ops. The questions is about whether it is appropriate to fly an IFR MAP after a Visual approach.

You guys are really making mountains out of molehills here.

First off, in my 10 years of professional flying, I can count on two hands the number of times that I have gone around in visual conditions at towered airports.

EVERY TIME, tower issued instructions. (As they are required to per FAA Order 7110.65). Those instructions may vary depending on the airport. You might get "make left traffic" at a place like Allentown, PA. On the other hand, you're pretty much guaranteed that you won't get "make closed traffic" at a place like ORD or LAX, even in the middle of the night.

When I fly into a controlled airport in visual conditions, I brief "If we have to go around/missed we will go straight ahead to X feet or as instructed by ATC". I figure once we get established in the climb and cleaned back up, then either ATC will tell us what to do, or ask our intentions.

9/10, they say "fly runway heading, maintain x feet, contact departure".

That's cool -- but's let's talk about the 1/10 times, because you want to be legal all of the time, right?


Let's say it's VMC (your words were "visual conditions"), but you are cleared the ILS. Tower clears you to land, but as you near the runway you observe a large animal in the touchdown zone. As you advance the power to reject the landing, you key the microphone to talk to tower. No answer. You start cleaning up the airplane, raising the landing gear, and call the tower again. Still, no answer.


What's the plan now?


Does your answer change if it's nighttime?







.

Ok. Let me clarify.

VFR arrival to a towered airport:
Fly straight ahead, request closed traffic:
"Citation 1234, going around, request closed traffic"

Cleared Visual Approach (day or night):
Fly straight ahead to predetermined altitude or as instructed by ATC. I usually plan 3000' agl or the normal altitude that ATC clears me to when I depart the airport. If I can't fly straight ahead due to whatever (terrain, weather, etc), I'm going to notify the tower before turning.
"Citation 1234, going around, unable runway heading, request right turnout."


Cleared for the ILS (regardless of the weather conditions):
Fly the published missed approach or as instructed by ATC.
"Citation 1234, missed approach."

With any of those situations, tower IS going to give you instructions. The reason that I personally brief, is so that I have something in mind in the unlikely event that all of a sudden I lose comms right as I hit the TOGA button.

VFR arrival to a nontowered airport:
Set max thrust, pitch for 45 degrees and roll 180 degrees simultanously, then pull through vertical to line up for an opposite direction arrival.

"XYZ airport traffic, Citation 1234, going around from runway 6- we'll be executing an overhead half cuban eight for an opposite direction arrival to runway 24, full stop, XYZ airport."


Last scenario aside, what you do is EXERCISE common sense and your authority as a PIC to ensure the safe outcome of your flight. Fly like you brief and brief like you train.

Comments like this is probably why the avatar says "Position:job hunting"

I talked to several controllers and received similar answers. All three of them said depending on the airport, they may not want you to enter the pattern. They said they would prefer you to climb and fly the runway heading. By flying over the runway, you should be clear of any traffic, and if you haven’t gotten a hold of tower by the time you get to the other end of the runway, then punch in 7600 because you have a comm. Failure. They said they would then give you instructions to remain in the pattern or go back to approach. Since there is no missed approach procedure for a visual approach, your only choice is to stay in the pattern, but always talk to tower because they may have a different plan for you. If you don’t like the grey area this puts you in, don’t forget, tower will be able to give you pattern instructions before you begin to do any missed approach procedure. The people in the tower are human and they will work with you no matter how annoyed they may sound.

For example, I was up in a tower today and someone did a go around, but instead of making right traffic as they were told, they got confused and turned left. The controller saw and was able to make room in the pattern. He was not too upset with the pilot because he knew the pilot’s mind was prepared to land, but last second, the pilot had to change his mindset completely and start a climb. He said he expects pilots to get behind their aircraft when that happens.

[quote=rickair7777;544495]At an uncontrolled field you own the airspace while on an IFR flight plan until you cancel (or they locate the wreckage).

This is not correct if the uncontrolled field is VFR then any aircraft established in the traffic pattern has the right of way.

What are you going to do if you are cleard for a visual appraoch to a runway with no IAP?

[QUOTE=HIFLYR;583768]My comment was in reference to IFR operations and whether you need to contact ATC on a go-around. You do in fact own the airspace as far as ATC is concerned for their IFR traffic separation.