Turbine Time as essentially a ridealong
 

A friend of a friend is in a position to take me along on some maintenance flights in a Jetstream to give me some turbine time. As the largest aircraft I've flown so far is a Seneca IV, I'm obviously not going to be logging PIC or SIC. If we assume I actually end up helping to fly this aircraft to some extent, is there any way I can log Turbine time legally?

Only if he is an instructor with a jetsream type. Or an ATP with the type. You can always log the radio time though;)

Why not? AFAIK you don't need an "SIC type" to log SIC if the plane requires two people up front. (I don't know if a Jetstream does or not). And someone will know better than me... but could if be logged as "PIC/Dual Received" if the ATP in command can instruct in that plane towards a type rating (don't flame me too fast, I admit I don't know off hand)?

If he's a MEI that will give you some more option.

You can log anything you want, it's your logbook.

However...employers generally want to see FAR-legal time only (and sometimes they are more stringent than that with regards to PIC).

If the guy is an MEI you can get dual-received. You could also legally do safety pilot time, but future employers would be very suspicious of SP time logged in a ME turbine aircraft...they would suspect (correctly) that the real reason for the flight was not hood time.

If the jetstream were certified for two pilots (I don't think it is), you could log SIC.

Also be aware that at interviews for entry-level jobs, they will usually talk systems about one of the airplanes you have flown...and they often pick the most complex. If you log it, you might end up trying to explain the jetstream electrical or pressurization system at a regional interview.

I was in a similar situation with a CJ2 and a glider. I didn't log either but have made a note in the back pages just as a reminder. Like rickair said I wouldn't want to talk bout the plane other than that I had the chance to fly it for story purposes.

Isn't the Jetstream a two pilot plane? Would'nt one have to be giving dual in order to meet that requirement?

Thanks for the replies, guys. He's not an MEI that I know of, but yes it is a two pilot aircraft so my being there was basically a formality. I ended up logging it just as multi/complex time (I don't have room for a turbine column and as I'm starting a job as a CFI I'm not willing to give up the Complex column yet), and I'll leave it off the resume to keep from getting interrogated on Jetstream hydraulics my first regional interview.

Again: thanks for the advice.

I believe it is certified for single pilot ops. It may be certified for either single OR dual pilot ops in which case you could log SIC (comply with part 91 training requirements).

Just because 135/121 operators may use two pilots does NOT mean the aircraft is certified for two pilots for part 91 purposes.

The 3100 requires one pilot per the TCDS, the 3200 and 4100 require 2.

And since there is a type rating for the 3100 (which covers the 3200) and 4100, I wouldn't put down PIC.

OK, so you could only log dual received from a typed MEI in the 3100, no PIC.

In the 3200/4100 you could log dual received or SIC. No PIC.

WOW way off..... the 3100 and 3200 are a common type and BOTH REQUIRE 2 pilots. . . . The 4100 is a different type from the 3100 series. And it too requires 2 pilots.

You're right, the HP 137 Jetstream, the Jetstream 200 and the 3100 are all the same TCDS and I just read the first one. The HP 137 and Jetstream 200 only require one pilot, the 3100 does require two pilots.

If the aircraft requires 1 pilot, but insurance requires 2, can the right seat pilot log SIC?

Insurance requirements don't have anything to do with regulatory requirements.

You didn't answer the question.

If the aircraft requires 1 pilot, but insurance requires 2, can the right seat pilot log SIC?

If not, what does the right seat pilot put in their logbook?

The only way the pilot in the right seat can log the time is if it's dual received, they are the sole manipulator of the controls, or if they work for a 135 operator where the operating certificate specifies a need for two pilots.

I did answer the question. Insurance requirements mean nothing in terms of what can be logged and how. If the aircraft doesn't require an SIC per the Type Certificate Data Sheet or operating certificate you can't log SIC.

Since we were talking about Jetstreams, here's the TCDS for the 32. Min Crew is on page 3 http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...%20rev%207.pdf

He answered the question. Nothing goes in your logbook.

No! Absolutely not!

You can only log SIC if

a) The airplane is type certificated for two pilots. If the airplane is typed for either single OR two-pilot operations, you may chose to conduct two-pilot ops, even if one or both pilots is typed for single-pilot.

b) The FAR you are operating under requires two pilots. This usually means a single-pilot airplane operated under 135 or 121, with an OPSPEC requirement for two pilots.


Non-FAA requirements for a second pilot do NOT allow logging of legal SIC. This includes insurance or company policy. Note that an FAA-approved company OPSPEC is regulatory...but other documents like company memos, bulletins, policy do not count.

You are going for an airplane ride...don't log it. There is no law against logging total time, but some employers might take issue with that when they find out the time was not FAA time. I would not want to have to explain it.

Yeah I guess he did answer the question, I just wanted a good explanation and I think the two of you provided it. I just know many people who have built time that way and I always wondered if the insurance requirement made the logging of SIC legitimate. Apparently not..

Sorry if I got a little short in my answer. I got in a heated argument with a guy buying SIC time at a 135 cargo operator that used metros. When I showed him the TCDS for the aircraft and dug up the OPS SPEC to show him that what he was logging was not legal (guy he was flying with did not have an ATP or current MEI). Ride alongs are neat, but nothing ticks me off more than people that log what isn't legal trying to get an edge. You might as well just make it up.

You can "log" whatever you wish. Remember though, that might come back to haunt you. That person sitting on the other side of the table might have 4000 hours in the MU-2 you did a couple rides in working the radios for the owner and why it was logged as SIC. That could get ugly.

The FARs are pretty clear in what you should log for aeronautical experience pertaining to ratings and currency.

The question has been answered, but its important to note what kind of airplane you are talking about to help broaden the understanding.

If its a single-pilot jet (such as a Mustang, CJ or Premier), one can long SIC time provided you have been trained in accordance with 61.55, your logbook reflects as much, and the PIC is 61.58 current. This is because the TCDS for these aircraft shows Required Crew as "minimum one".

If its a King Air, then the TCDS shows Required Crew as "one" and you're pretty much out of luck.

I see, "one" vs. "minimum one".

The aircraft was an SA-227 if that helps.

Huh?

Exactly how does "minimum one" translate into "requires more than one"?

Those airplanes are essentially two-pilot airplanes which the FAA allows to be operated as single pilot by a specially trained pilot.

The generic type rating requires two pilots. You can get a one-pilot type by demonstrating that you can do it all by yourself.

If the PIC has a single-pilot type, he can still chose to operate with two pilots...legal and loggable SIC. The SIC would need the minimum training in part 61.

"One" means just that - one/eine/uno required pilot.

"Minimum one" means at least one, but possibly more.

As an example, a holder of a CE525S type rating cannot fly a CJ single pilot if the autopilot is MEL'd. The only way that airplane could legally be flown is with an SIC trained IAW 61.55 and the PIC being 61.58 current.

Thanks. I think I understand.

It's similar to the Part 135 passenger IFR/autopilot SIC issue, although dealing with the aircraft's certification rather than the type of operation?

Correct. Basically the FAA is spring-loaded to require two pilots on turbojets, but if all the conditions are met, you can operate single-pilot on some of them. But that provision does not prevent normal two-pilot operations if conditions warrant, or if desired by the pilots.

The FAA's rules regarding how PIC time should be logged gets thrown out the window once you get 250 hours required for the ATP checkride. The FAA's definition for PIC time is only for their purposes (anything requiring an 8710 form). Airlines and employers often have their own definition that they use (like limiting how much safety pilot PIC time is valid).

Every time these topics like this come up it always perplexes me. There is absolutly nothing legally wrong with improperly logging PIC time once you're past 250, so why bring the regs up into discussions like this?

Another thing. The whole point of logging time is to record experiences. Lets say Person A sat right seat in a King Air for 500 hours only because an insurance company required him to. None of this time is "legally" loggable. Person B spent 500 hours right seat in the same model King Air because his opspecs says he has to be there. He can "legally" log it. If you're interviewing both candidates, why should the one who "legally" logged the flight get the upperhand? Do they both not have the same experiences?

Edit: sorry didn't see the SIC in your question, you can log SIC if is certified for 2 pilots.

The OPSPEC SIC had to do training, a checkride, and recurrent. The other guy might just be going for an airplane ride...who knows?

If you show up at an interview with logged PIC time, employers generally expect that to be FAR legal time (even if you already have your ATP). If you represent a certain amount of PIC, SIC, or turbine time and they discover while reviewing your book that it was ride-along time, you will be shown the door for misrepresenting yourself.

I would not clutter up my book with questionable time. If you do, advise interviewers about it up front...if they find it one their own, your interview is over.