Visual approach, weather missing. Legal?
 

So we were flying 121, severe clear into an uncontrolled airport in Podunk, Wyoming. The ASOS reported "missing" for everything but the altimeter. Center couldn't supply the local weather, either. We called the airport in sight, but can we legally accept a visual approach from Center?

I remembered something about an NWS approved weather report being required, but does it HAVE to be a METAR? We took off with a current METAR in the release, along with the TAF. But when we arrived for the approach, the release's METAR was over an hour old and the current METAR had the "missing" information. Hmmmm....

My understanding is that you are legal for the visual approach, but with a missing weather report, that is the only type of approach that you are legal to use.

Joe

Not sure in the 121 world but in the 135 world if the weather is not reported by a approved source it is not legal. I think you guys need reported weather also. The part 91 guys can report the weather for themselves they don't need a faa approved source.

Read your FOM.

Also assuming you did not have alternate fuel, would it have been safer to divert somewhere else? If not, than PIC authority prevails. Since you had the right info at departure and had no reason to believe the AWOS would fail you should be OK making a command decision.

How'd you work your performance numbers?

PART 121 WEATHER REQUIREMENTS

121
.

§ 121.567 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.

No person may make an instrument approach at an airport except in accordance with IFR weather minimums and instrument approach procedures set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.

§ 121.599 Familiarity with weather conditions.

(a) Domestic and flag operations. No aircraft dispatcher may release a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.

(b) Supplemental operations. No pilot in command may begin a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2614, Jan. 26, 1996]

§ 121.613 Dispatch or flight release under IFR or over the top.

Except as provided in §121.615, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft for operations under IFR or over-the-top, unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at the airport or airports to which dispatched or released.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]

§ 121.625 Alternate airport weather minimums.

No person may list an airport as an alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release unless the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the alternate weather minimums specified in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport when the flight arrives.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]

§ 121.651 Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.

(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in—

(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or

(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure—

(1) At any airport, unless the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, issues a weather report for that airport; and

(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S. military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure. For the purpose of this section, the term “U.S. military airports” means airports in foreign countries where flight operations are under the control of U.S. military authority.

(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section, and after that receives a later weather report indicating below-minimum conditions, the pilot may continue the approach to DH or MDA. Upon reaching DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DH or MDA if either the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:

(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and where that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;

(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used;

(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights; and

(4) When the aircraft is on a straight-in nonprecision approach procedure which incorporates a visual descent point, the aircraft has reached the visual descent point, except where the aircraft is not equipped for or capable of establishing that point, or a descent to the runway cannot be made using normal procedures or rates of descent if descent is delayed until reaching that point.

(d) A pilot may begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure other than a Category II or Category III procedure at an airport when the visibility is less than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure if that airport is served by an operative ILS and an operative PAR, and both are used by the pilot. However, no pilot may continue an approach below the authorized DH unless the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:

(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers and where such a descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;

(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used; and

(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights.

(e) For the purpose of this section, the final approach segment begins at the final approach fix or facility prescribed in the instrument approach procedure. When a final approach fix is not prescribed for a procedure that includes a procedure turn, the final approach segment begins at the point where the procedure turn is completed and the aircraft is established inbound toward the airport on the final approach course within the distance prescribed in the procedure.

(f) Unless otherwise authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications, each pilot making an IFR takeoff, approach, or landing at a foreign airport shall comply with the applicable instrument approach procedures and weather minimums prescribed by the authority having jurisdiction over the airport.

[Doc. No. 20060, 46 FR 2291, Jan. 8, 1981, as amended by Amdt. 121–303, 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004]

§ 121.652 Landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.

(a) If the pilot in command of an airplane has not served 100 hours as pilot in command in operations under this part in the type of airplane he is operating, the MDA or DH and visibility landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specification for regular, provisional, or refueling airports are increased by 100 feet and one-half mile (or the RVR equivalent). The MDA or DH and visibility minimums need not be increased above those applicable to the airport when used as an alternate airport, but in no event may the landing minimums be less than 300 and 1. However, a Pilot in command employed by a certificate holder conducting operations in large aircraft under part 135 of this chapter, may credit flight time acquired in operations conducted for that operator under part 91 in the same type airplane for up to 50 percent of the 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by this paragraph.

(b) The 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by paragraph (a) of this section may be reduced (not to exceed 50 percent) by substituting one landing in operations under this part in the type of airplane for 1 required hour of pilot in command experience, if the pilot has at least 100 hours as pilot in command of another type airplane in operations under this part.

(c) Category II minimums and the sliding scale when authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications do not apply until the pilot in command subject to paragraph (a) of this section meets the requirements of that paragraph in the type of airplane he is operating.

[Doc. No. 7594, 33 FR 10843, July 31, 1968, as amended by Amdt. 121–143, 43 FR 22642, May 25, 1978; Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2615, Jan. 26, 1996]

121.655 Applicability of reported weather minimums.

In conducting operations under §§121.649 through 121.653, the ceiling and visibility values in the main body of the latest weather report control for VFR and IFR takeoffs and landings and for instrument approach procedures on all runways of an airport. However, if the latest weather report, including an oral report from the control tower, contains a visibility value specified as runway visibility or runway visual range for a particular runway of an airport, that specified value controls for VFR and IFR landings and takeoffs and straight-in instrument approaches for that runway.

yes you can do the approach. remember you are a weather person also. You have established ceiling and visibility, all you need are the winds. Over fly the field and now you have those. For dispatching purposes you have to have a FAA approved weather reporting source. Once up in the air its up to the PIC to make the decision as to if the approach should be made or not. Its like if the visibility starts reporting 1/8 a mile AFTER you pass the final approach fix and its a cat 1 approach. If once you get down there and you see the runway you can land. you just created your own visibility report for yourself and it was good enough to continue and land.

which performance numbers are you refering to? If you are refering to landing performance numbers those are already calculated before you leave and you can get them again enroute via distpatch or the books. Our landing numbers aren't based on anything except pressure altitude, weight, and contamination.

I dont know about that.
A. I dont believe "we" are weather people. You can not just start reporting your own conditions
B. According to our OP Specs (ASA), for departure and arrivals, you can get temps from a nearby source. Ceilings are only required for instrument procedures. Wind can be missing for DEPARTURES, where you takeoff into the wind according to the wind sock.
C. everything else is required.

never said we make up our own conditions. Like i said if you start an approach and the vis goes below minimums after you begin the approach are you going to go around? no of course not. When you get down to minimums and you see the runway and land are you going to get violated because the reported visibility is below the approach minimums? No of course not. You have to base your decisions on known conditions and what you experience in flight. If you get to the airport and its clear and a million and the asos has gone down are you going to divert? of course not. You will establish the winds, use a nearby altimeter setting and land the plane. Now dont get me wrong if its a broken layer and 3 miles visibility then yeah you cant just say "oh it looks good" and keep going.

The answer is flat out no you can not land 121 without certain weather being reported on the ASOS or a trained weather observer on the ground where you are landing. Better fill out a ASAP or NASA form. It can be clear in a million and you still wont be able to land. I recommend you open your FOM next time before you land without the weather and also before you ask about it on the internet.

what 121 do you work for? Like the last post said, follow your op specs. I cant find in ASA's op specs anywhere about getting your own wind and altimeter setting. I agree with you about the approach stuff, however that is basic instrument rules. I believe this poster is talking about no asos from the begining. And for that you MUST follow Op Specs (unless emergency). I have had a couple occasions where data is missing or inaccurate and we have had to delay departure or call up someone to get the information. It sucks, but its part of all the sometimes dumb rules associated with 121 flying.
On a side note, I cant really say that i have ever actually seen a "weather observer" or heard of anyone actually using one. Are these guys left over from olden days or are they still actively used?? (I dont mean atc type folks either) Any stories anyone?

please re read my post. I said that you have to have a faa approved weather source to take off and be dispatched. I never said you can just take off without that information.

As has been said, read your Ops Specs.

Using a "nearby altimeter" has to in your Ops Specs on an airport by airport basis.

The landing minimums are based on Flight Visibility so the flight crew can determine that. The flight crew is not an approved source of weather data under 121.

The last job, the landing data charts had PA v temp. The job I'm furloughed from we feed the ATIS into a laptop and it won't preceed without a temp. I was also wondering how he was going to depart.

The old school observers have been pretty much replaced by AWOS/ASOS boxes. In the long run the box is cheaper, plus the WX Service gets 24 hour coverage. Their computers do better with more data so the more obs the better. I think the days of floating a ceiling balloon on your hand, removing the wood block and timing it into the clouds are gone.

Seems to me that you took off with a valid observation and forecast, and lacking other information, you could use the last valid observation you had to satisfy the legal requirement for landing weather. Every airline is different. Our FOM prohibits a visual approach if it is the captains first time at a particular airfield.

Someone else alluded to captains authority, and I agree. If, in the captains judgement, it was safer to land than to divert, then that's all he (or she) has to say to anyone who asks. End of discussion. That's why we get paid the big bucks! Safe, legal, reliable. In that order.

The obvious potential problem is that you don't know what the winds are, so you could possibly exceed tailwind/xwind limits.

I agree that it is probably a technical violation unless your FOM says otherwise.

At an airport with a part time tower, my company uses one or more ramp workers, who have been trained, as official weather observers. If we are late and the tower is closed, they radio us the weather on company frequency. Not a frequent occurance, but it does happen.

Joe

Reading poweful1's clipping from the FAR makes me wonder what the FAA would consider the "latest" weather? The last obs I received would seem to be valid to shoot an IFR approach w/out any additional information. After all, I should have a forecast indicating the worst case weather for a specific period. And, as a pilot, I should at least have a glimmer of an idea whether I think that forecast is valid or simply a WAG.

And, as was mentioned, even if I have an ob that says the vis is good, if I get to mins and don't agree that the vis meets the requirements for the approach I'm going around. And, the opposite is true as well. If I get a below mins ob and I continue to mins and feel that the vis is meets that required for the approach, I'm landing

+1

We had the official observer out at 1am on several occasions when we were delayed and the ASOS was down. Gotta have it.

And if I was NORDO, what would I do?
If it was severe clear, I'd land.
If it was cloudy, I'd shoot the approach and try and land?

I haven't read any FAR that indicates that the latest weather obs must be hourly. And, I have landed at several airports with ATIS 2-4 hours old.

I can't depart without knowing the current obs and forecast, so, I just don't think diverting on a severe clear day is the appropriate response in general.
At FedEx, we'd be on the carpet tap-dancing if we diverted in this situation.

Its been quite a few yrs since I have been faced with a problem like this but the way I seem to remember it is...you can have the SA or metar missing but can using an FT for a substitute. Assuming you will be arriving during the time the forecast is valid.

Call Your Lawyer
 

I don't think so. Check Powerful1 posting, check your FOM and more importantly.....CHECK YOUR OPSPECS. They are your "bible" and you are bound by what's contained therein.

G'Luck Mates

I ran into this problem a time or two up in them Wyoming parts. If the ATIS or AWOS/ASOS you have is less than an hour old, you are good to go. Otherwise you need a qualified observer on the ground. This is why airlines like Lakes train ground personel to be qualified wx observers. It is a pain when the weather is clear and a million but it must be done this way per the regs. Also I agree with whoever said that you can just land any way if its the safest option. ie low fuel or whatnot but that goes with anything. Thats when the big book goes out the window and you have to step up to the plate and be a captain.

Part 121, the weather must be reporting or you can not land. even if its a beautiful day

Still can't find the FAR approved expiration time for weather.

Do know I can't dispatch unless the forecast or observation is good enough to land at my destination
FAR Part 121 Sec. 121.613 effective as of 11/18/1967

And all 121.655 says is the latest weather is controlling.

FAR Part 121 Sec. 121.655 effective as of 04/01/1965

And if VFR isn't legal for 121 ops, why is there a section outlining the mins?
(Doesn't preclude a particular company from restricting VFR flight to a non-towered airport, but, the feds are cool with it)
FAR Part 121 Sec. 121.649 effective as of 09/16/1993

To me, barring a weather or forecast observation below mins. The Crew should be legal to commence the approach, then make a determination about whether the weather is sufficient to land under Cat 2 or better approach mins.
Cat 3 mins and you should be going around even if you see the runway, unless the Capt determines that landing is the safest option and uses his/her emergency authority to land.

When I'm the PIC, just not going to divert if the inflight vis is 30+miles just because the ASOS is broken

Reference to dispatch weather minimums: Domestically you must have a forecast of minimums to dispatch, under Flag rules you are allowed to have a forecast of zero/zero, provided you have an alternate. (At "my house" two alternates are required, with fuel requirements to the farther alternate.)

Joe

There is no "expiration" time for a wx ob. The ob reports the wx at the time it was taken. The NWS has standards for when a new ob has to be taken. You could have a "SPECI" report 2 minutes after the METAR if the wind swings enough, a thunderstorm starts or ends, the ceiling lifts or drops a given amount, etc. With an observer in place, it's implied that the reported wx is valid until a new report comes out. Without the coverage, you have no idea what the weather IS, just what it WAS.

And if VFR isn't legal for 121 ops, why is there a section outlining the mins?

It's just not legal for you, you don't have paragraph B51 in your OPS SPECs.

What's a Forecast Observation? If the current wx is at or above your minumums for the approach, you shoot it and see what happens. If you've got IIIb in you OPS SPECs, it's a IIIb approach and the plane and crew are good for IIIb, you'll never see the runway till you touch down.

If it's not legal for me, why is it approved in my FOM?

Just because something is unusual, doesn't mean it's prohibited. FARs give the Capt a ton of leeway to safely operate a flight.
If you, as the Capt, feel landing a plane at a non-towered airport without a vis report is beyond your capabilities, then don't do it.

I don't think there's a company out there that's going to relish the monkey wrench you just threw into the system. But, I'll gladly open the pocketbook if the company over-reacts and tells you to hit the street.
(Especially since most non-towered ops are in the midnight-5 timeframe--have to think a divert might put you beyond duty limits, limited turn possibilities, and how do you get an "approved" weather guy out to the field to fix the problem you diverted for. Can't you just see the film running on CNN-certainly shouldn't consider the media as part of your decision making. Although I guarantee the company will consider it and likely overreact.)

I thought you were asking the question, if you've got VFR in your FOM and OPS SPECs then it's not illegal.

If you, as the Capt, feel landing a plane at a non-towered airport without a vis report is beyond your capabilities, then don't do it.

I don't think it's beyond my capabilities, I just think that without declaring an emergency first, it's illegal.

Especially since most non-towered ops are in the midnight-5 timeframe--
having to think a divert might put you beyond duty time limits, limited turn
possibilities, and how do you get an "approved" weather guy out to the field

Having spent 25+ years checking in at sunset and getting to the hotel after sunrise, I've got a pretty good idea of how the ATC system works at night. And I've checked into a hotel a few times at 2am for 8 hours. If I only divert to an airport with WX at 2 or 3 in the morning, I think there will be WX at 10 in the morning (except ILN.)