Visual approach, weather missing. Legal?
08-03-2009, 01:26 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 33
Visual approach, weather missing. Legal?
So we were flying 121, severe clear into an uncontrolled airport in Podunk, Wyoming. The ASOS reported "missing" for everything but the altimeter. Center couldn't supply the local weather, either. We called the airport in sight, but can we legally accept a visual approach from Center?
I remembered something about an NWS approved weather report being required, but does it HAVE to be a METAR? We took off with a current METAR in the release, along with the TAF. But when we arrived for the approach, the release's METAR was over an hour old and the current METAR had the "missing" information. Hmmmm....
I remembered something about an NWS approved weather report being required, but does it HAVE to be a METAR? We took off with a current METAR in the release, along with the TAF. But when we arrived for the approach, the release's METAR was over an hour old and the current METAR had the "missing" information. Hmmmm....
08-03-2009, 01:40 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 48
Not sure in the 121 world but in the 135 world if the weather is not reported by a approved source it is not legal. I think you guys need reported weather also. The part 91 guys can report the weather for themselves they don't need a faa approved source.
08-03-2009, 02:49 PM
#4
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Read your FOM.
Also assuming you did not have alternate fuel, would it have been safer to divert somewhere else? If not, than PIC authority prevails. Since you had the right info at departure and had no reason to believe the AWOS would fail you should be OK making a command decision.
Also assuming you did not have alternate fuel, would it have been safer to divert somewhere else? If not, than PIC authority prevails. Since you had the right info at departure and had no reason to believe the AWOS would fail you should be OK making a command decision.
08-03-2009, 03:07 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: R U Serious?
Posts: 260
PART 121 WEATHER REQUIREMENTS
121
.
§ 121.567 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.
No person may make an instrument approach at an airport except in accordance with IFR weather minimums and instrument approach procedures set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
§ 121.599 Familiarity with weather conditions.
(a) Domestic and flag operations. No aircraft dispatcher may release a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.
(b) Supplemental operations. No pilot in command may begin a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2614, Jan. 26, 1996]
§ 121.613 Dispatch or flight release under IFR or over the top.
Except as provided in §121.615, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft for operations under IFR or over-the-top, unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at the airport or airports to which dispatched or released.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]
§ 121.625 Alternate airport weather minimums.
No person may list an airport as an alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release unless the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the alternate weather minimums specified in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport when the flight arrives.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]
§ 121.651 Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in—
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure—
(1) At any airport, unless the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, issues a weather report for that airport; and
(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S. military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure. For the purpose of this section, the term “U.S. military airports” means airports in foreign countries where flight operations are under the control of U.S. military authority.
(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section, and after that receives a later weather report indicating below-minimum conditions, the pilot may continue the approach to DH or MDA. Upon reaching DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DH or MDA if either the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and where that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used;
(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights; and
(4) When the aircraft is on a straight-in nonprecision approach procedure which incorporates a visual descent point, the aircraft has reached the visual descent point, except where the aircraft is not equipped for or capable of establishing that point, or a descent to the runway cannot be made using normal procedures or rates of descent if descent is delayed until reaching that point.
(d) A pilot may begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure other than a Category II or Category III procedure at an airport when the visibility is less than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure if that airport is served by an operative ILS and an operative PAR, and both are used by the pilot. However, no pilot may continue an approach below the authorized DH unless the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers and where such a descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used; and
(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
(e) For the purpose of this section, the final approach segment begins at the final approach fix or facility prescribed in the instrument approach procedure. When a final approach fix is not prescribed for a procedure that includes a procedure turn, the final approach segment begins at the point where the procedure turn is completed and the aircraft is established inbound toward the airport on the final approach course within the distance prescribed in the procedure.
(f) Unless otherwise authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications, each pilot making an IFR takeoff, approach, or landing at a foreign airport shall comply with the applicable instrument approach procedures and weather minimums prescribed by the authority having jurisdiction over the airport.
[Doc. No. 20060, 46 FR 2291, Jan. 8, 1981, as amended by Amdt. 121–303, 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004]
§ 121.652 Landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) If the pilot in command of an airplane has not served 100 hours as pilot in command in operations under this part in the type of airplane he is operating, the MDA or DH and visibility landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specification for regular, provisional, or refueling airports are increased by 100 feet and one-half mile (or the RVR equivalent). The MDA or DH and visibility minimums need not be increased above those applicable to the airport when used as an alternate airport, but in no event may the landing minimums be less than 300 and 1. However, a Pilot in command employed by a certificate holder conducting operations in large aircraft under part 135 of this chapter, may credit flight time acquired in operations conducted for that operator under part 91 in the same type airplane for up to 50 percent of the 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by this paragraph.
(b) The 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by paragraph (a) of this section may be reduced (not to exceed 50 percent) by substituting one landing in operations under this part in the type of airplane for 1 required hour of pilot in command experience, if the pilot has at least 100 hours as pilot in command of another type airplane in operations under this part.
(c) Category II minimums and the sliding scale when authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications do not apply until the pilot in command subject to paragraph (a) of this section meets the requirements of that paragraph in the type of airplane he is operating.
[Doc. No. 7594, 33 FR 10843, July 31, 1968, as amended by Amdt. 121–143, 43 FR 22642, May 25, 1978; Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2615, Jan. 26, 1996]
121.655 Applicability of reported weather minimums.
In conducting operations under §§121.649 through 121.653, the ceiling and visibility values in the main body of the latest weather report control for VFR and IFR takeoffs and landings and for instrument approach procedures on all runways of an airport. However, if the latest weather report, including an oral report from the control tower, contains a visibility value specified as runway visibility or runway visual range for a particular runway of an airport, that specified value controls for VFR and IFR landings and takeoffs and straight-in instrument approaches for that runway.
121
.
§ 121.567 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.
No person may make an instrument approach at an airport except in accordance with IFR weather minimums and instrument approach procedures set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
§ 121.599 Familiarity with weather conditions.
(a) Domestic and flag operations. No aircraft dispatcher may release a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.
(b) Supplemental operations. No pilot in command may begin a flight unless he is thoroughly familiar with reported and forecast weather conditions on the route to be flown.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2614, Jan. 26, 1996]
§ 121.613 Dispatch or flight release under IFR or over the top.
Except as provided in §121.615, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft for operations under IFR or over-the-top, unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at the airport or airports to which dispatched or released.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]
§ 121.625 Alternate airport weather minimums.
No person may list an airport as an alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release unless the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the alternate weather minimums specified in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport when the flight arrives.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19222, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–33, 32 FR 13912, Oct. 6, 1967]
§ 121.651 Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in—
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure—
(1) At any airport, unless the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, issues a weather report for that airport; and
(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S. military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure. For the purpose of this section, the term “U.S. military airports” means airports in foreign countries where flight operations are under the control of U.S. military authority.
(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section, and after that receives a later weather report indicating below-minimum conditions, the pilot may continue the approach to DH or MDA. Upon reaching DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DH or MDA if either the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and where that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used;
(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights; and
(4) When the aircraft is on a straight-in nonprecision approach procedure which incorporates a visual descent point, the aircraft has reached the visual descent point, except where the aircraft is not equipped for or capable of establishing that point, or a descent to the runway cannot be made using normal procedures or rates of descent if descent is delayed until reaching that point.
(d) A pilot may begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure other than a Category II or Category III procedure at an airport when the visibility is less than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure if that airport is served by an operative ILS and an operative PAR, and both are used by the pilot. However, no pilot may continue an approach below the authorized DH unless the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers and where such a descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used; and
(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
(e) For the purpose of this section, the final approach segment begins at the final approach fix or facility prescribed in the instrument approach procedure. When a final approach fix is not prescribed for a procedure that includes a procedure turn, the final approach segment begins at the point where the procedure turn is completed and the aircraft is established inbound toward the airport on the final approach course within the distance prescribed in the procedure.
(f) Unless otherwise authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications, each pilot making an IFR takeoff, approach, or landing at a foreign airport shall comply with the applicable instrument approach procedures and weather minimums prescribed by the authority having jurisdiction over the airport.
[Doc. No. 20060, 46 FR 2291, Jan. 8, 1981, as amended by Amdt. 121–303, 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004]
§ 121.652 Landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) If the pilot in command of an airplane has not served 100 hours as pilot in command in operations under this part in the type of airplane he is operating, the MDA or DH and visibility landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specification for regular, provisional, or refueling airports are increased by 100 feet and one-half mile (or the RVR equivalent). The MDA or DH and visibility minimums need not be increased above those applicable to the airport when used as an alternate airport, but in no event may the landing minimums be less than 300 and 1. However, a Pilot in command employed by a certificate holder conducting operations in large aircraft under part 135 of this chapter, may credit flight time acquired in operations conducted for that operator under part 91 in the same type airplane for up to 50 percent of the 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by this paragraph.
(b) The 100 hours of pilot in command experience required by paragraph (a) of this section may be reduced (not to exceed 50 percent) by substituting one landing in operations under this part in the type of airplane for 1 required hour of pilot in command experience, if the pilot has at least 100 hours as pilot in command of another type airplane in operations under this part.
(c) Category II minimums and the sliding scale when authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications do not apply until the pilot in command subject to paragraph (a) of this section meets the requirements of that paragraph in the type of airplane he is operating.
[Doc. No. 7594, 33 FR 10843, July 31, 1968, as amended by Amdt. 121–143, 43 FR 22642, May 25, 1978; Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2615, Jan. 26, 1996]
121.655 Applicability of reported weather minimums.
In conducting operations under §§121.649 through 121.653, the ceiling and visibility values in the main body of the latest weather report control for VFR and IFR takeoffs and landings and for instrument approach procedures on all runways of an airport. However, if the latest weather report, including an oral report from the control tower, contains a visibility value specified as runway visibility or runway visual range for a particular runway of an airport, that specified value controls for VFR and IFR landings and takeoffs and straight-in instrument approaches for that runway.
08-03-2009, 03:07 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
yes you can do the approach. remember you are a weather person also. You have established ceiling and visibility, all you need are the winds. Over fly the field and now you have those. For dispatching purposes you have to have a FAA approved weather reporting source. Once up in the air its up to the PIC to make the decision as to if the approach should be made or not. Its like if the visibility starts reporting 1/8 a mile AFTER you pass the final approach fix and its a cat 1 approach. If once you get down there and you see the runway you can land. you just created your own visibility report for yourself and it was good enough to continue and land.
08-03-2009, 03:11 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
Originally Posted by Twin Wasp
How'd you work your performance numbers?
08-03-2009, 07:11 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by Airsupport
yes you can do the approach. remember you are a weather person also. You have established ceiling and visibility, all you need are the winds. Over fly the field and now you have those. For dispatching purposes you have to have a FAA approved weather reporting source. Once up in the air its up to the PIC to make the decision as to if the approach should be made or not. Its like if the visibility starts reporting 1/8 a mile AFTER you pass the final approach fix and its a cat 1 approach. If once you get down there and you see the runway you can land. you just created your own visibility report for yourself and it was good enough to continue and land.
A. I dont believe "we" are weather people. You can not just start reporting your own conditions
B. According to our OP Specs (ASA), for departure and arrivals, you can get temps from a nearby source. Ceilings are only required for instrument procedures. Wind can be missing for DEPARTURES, where you takeoff into the wind according to the wind sock.
C. everything else is required.
08-03-2009, 07:55 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
Originally Posted by hendefea
I dont know about that.
A. I dont believe "we" are weather people. You can not just start reporting your own conditions
B. According to our OP Specs (ASA), for departure and arrivals, you can get temps from a nearby source. Ceilings are only required for instrument procedures. Wind can be missing for DEPARTURES, where you takeoff into the wind according to the wind sock.
C. everything else is required.
A. I dont believe "we" are weather people. You can not just start reporting your own conditions
B. According to our OP Specs (ASA), for departure and arrivals, you can get temps from a nearby source. Ceilings are only required for instrument procedures. Wind can be missing for DEPARTURES, where you takeoff into the wind according to the wind sock.
C. everything else is required.
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