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-   -   Help. Multiple Checkride Failures (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/career-questions/111331-help-multiple-checkride-failures.html)

Propwash72 03-26-2018 04:57 AM

I've never flown with you, so I'm not going to try to diagnose your issues over the internet. I have 4 busts. Initial CFI 3x and 1 COM/ME. Since that time I amassed 21 years of accident/incident/violation free flying (including over 1K hours of instruction given) while stuck in a non-aviation career. I stayed active in CAP and became an instructor/check pilot with them. I went and got my ATP on my own before applying to the regionals. I got a 2nd BS degree and a Masters.

In my interview I owned my busts 100%. I'm now a CRJ900 captain and have never come close to busting a 121 event. So it is doable. Does this mean I'm stuck at a regional forever? Very possibly...or maybe the background I built since that time will compensate. No way to know for sure. But continue to build the best background and career you can, you're not going to go wrong doing that.

rickair7777 03-26-2018 06:08 AM


Originally Posted by SWLogic (Post 2558741)
Now try explaining that to a potential employer.

Don't say the DPE was a tool. Better to say you had checkride nerves, and got over it.

Also, lesson learned... the checkride is where the rubber meets the road in training, so naturally the make and model of tire is pretty important when you buy the car. So research the tire (ie DPE) that's going to be on the training car before you commit to a training program. The good news is that if you already bought the car but found out the tires suck, you can just change them out.

DPEs do have "de facto" quotas, at least in the sense that they cannot pass 100% of applicants over the long run and retain credibility with the FSDO. It is possible on any given day that a DPE needs some cannon fodder, and may be less forgiving than normal. Way to avoid that is to have a relationship with the DPE before the checkride, typically because you took one or more previous rides with him/her. This is particularly helpful on the CFI ride.

Bucknut 03-26-2018 07:57 AM

Re: Dpe
 
After becoming a TCE which is similar to a DPE, I realized several things when it comes to checkrides. It is rare that someone comes to a checkride unprepared. 1.) Nerves get some people really hyped up and affects performance and I would do my best to calm them down. 2.) There is more than one way to ask a question to get the anwer. 3.) I have experienced a DPE not conducting the checkride as they are directed by the FAA by not explaining the events of a checkride and giving a full briefing which helps the applicant get in the correct mindset. A checkride should be very standardized! 4 ) The applicant is not aware of the standard required (PTS/ACS). 5.) There is no failure quota and usually a failure to meet standards is pretty black and white. 6.) I have seen good pilots failing to meet the standards. 7.) I think 99 percent of examiners do not like to issue a notice of disapproval because of the ramifications it can have on someone's career but sometimes it is necessary. It is also a lot more paperwork to issue a dispapproval. 8.) If a training organization starts having enough people fail to meet the standards it raises red flags with the FAA. Just some things to think about when you reflect on what happened and going forward.

popeyes 03-26-2018 09:51 AM

So, as an older guy looking to get onto a Regional how many is too many? I had 3 and had been in/out of flying over the years.

Paperboi 03-26-2018 10:58 AM

You'll be fine popeyes trust me must own them and show how your failures have made you successful


Originally Posted by popeyes (Post 2559075)
So, as an older guy looking to get onto a Regional how many is too many? I had 3 and had been in/out of flying over the years.


rickair7777 03-26-2018 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by popeyes (Post 2559075)
So, as an older guy looking to get onto a Regional how many is too many? I had 3 and had been in/out of flying over the years.

Three is fine for regionals, and probably ULCC. Three is the grey area for big-six, and probably no-go for DAL.

It will help if they were piston GA/CFI rides, and you have a clean turbine/135/121 record.

Don't get any more.

BigfootCapo 03-26-2018 11:27 AM


Originally Posted by Kimchiflyrice (Post 2524785)
Hey, All.

I’m having issues. I did most of my training at ATP and was going through a lot of personal stuff during that time. My dad was diagnosed with cancer and I was involved in a major car wreck. Excuses aside, I failed 5 checkrides throughout my training.

I’ve recently hit my 1500 hours and have found it incredibly difficult to get a 121 job. If my application doesn’t get rejected, I do in the interview. 5 failures is a lot. Above average. Most fail 2. This is not a reflection of the pilot that I am today. It’s been 3 years since my last failure, but still an issue.

I suppose I am here out of desperation. I need advice because the rejections are hitting me hard and I don’t know how to move on from here. Being an instructor is great, but it takes a toll on me and I’m at the end of my rope.

If you have any positive suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.



Check ride failures are never a good thing; and, they are especially troubling if you have had more than one - for all the reasons that other posters have mentioned earlier. Having said that, they happen. Most pilots out there actually have had at least one throughout their training or even professional careers. Once they happen, there is not much one can do about them other than learn from the experience and move forward. So do that. Keep it in the past, learn from it and move forward.
As far as career and future jobs go, most agreed that you will have a difficult time securing a career at a top tier airline and they are probably right. But, not certain. Hiring is entirely dependent on the labor market which defines the quality of the pick airlines get from it. If guys with backgrounds like yours (no offense) are what is left for them to pick out from than they will take what they can at that time. The way the market is moving in terms of the so called pilot shortage, you just might get that chance somewhere down the line. Maybe not exactly with the legacy carrier, but second tier company or a regional probably. You can still make a very good living as a senior captain at a few of those places.
As for now, apply at every single regional or corporate outfit out there and take the offer if given one no matter who it is or how much they pay. Shape up in your training and let the time pass so you can explain it as something that happened in the past and you learned from it.
Keep moving forward and don’t give up. Good luck.

popeyes 03-26-2018 01:04 PM

Thx paperboi for the encouragement. The busts were for trivial, stupid things in retrospect.

Rickair I've got no 121/135 time to speak of so i'm still gold there.

I'm old enough to say i'm prolly not major material anymore -- I'd rather take the seniority/time off benefits @ regional levels to run my outside business projects/ventures than slug it around in the R seat of progressively bigger planes with crappy schedules but who knows? Maybe things can get so bad that there will be a offer from an Asian Godfather...

tmontana6 09-04-2018 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by Bucknut (Post 2558974)
After becoming a TCE which is similar to a DPE, I realized several things when it comes to checkrides. It is rare that someone comes to a checkride unprepared. 1.) Nerves get some people really hyped up and affects performance and I would do my best to calm them down. 2.) There is more than one way to ask a question to get the anwer. 3.) I have experienced a DPE not conducting the checkride as they are directed by the FAA by not explaining the events of a checkride and giving a full briefing which helps the applicant get in the correct mindset. A checkride should be very standardized! 4 ) The applicant is not aware of the standard required (PTS/ACS). 5.) There is no failure quota and usually a failure to meet standards is pretty black and white. 6.) I have seen good pilots failing to meet the standards. 7.) I think 99 percent of examiners do not like to issue a notice of disapproval because of the ramifications it can have on someone's career but sometimes it is necessary. It is also a lot more paperwork to issue a dispapproval. 8.) If a training organization starts having enough people fail to meet the standards it raises red flags with the FAA. Just some things to think about when you reflect on what happened and going forward.

I work in 142 after many years instructing in General Aviation and I can tell you that the environment is completely different. In General Aviation there is a lot of troll DPE that fail people at the minimum mistake or because their approval rate is quite high, because they after retake money, etc, things that usually dont happen in a 121/135 environment where the inspector have completely different attitude
After 3000 hours instructing I can write a book about stupid and unfair checkride failures in General Aviation, messing good pilots careers and how really bad pilots pass all the way with no failures....

IrishNJ 01-28-2020 12:05 AM


Originally Posted by tmontana6 (Post 2668015)
I work in 142 after many years instructing in General Aviation and I can tell you that the environment is completely different. In General Aviation there is a lot of troll DPE that fail people at the minimum mistake or because their approval rate is quite high, because they after retake money, etc, things that usually dont happen in a 121/135 environment where the inspector have completely different attitude
After 3000 hours instructing I can write a book about stupid and unfair checkride failures in General Aviation, messing good pilots careers and how really bad pilots pass all the way with no failures....

this is a pretty interesting thread but just in case any new guys are reading this and worried about how to avoid checkride busts. It’s a question of being COMPLETELY PREPARED.

I went through ALL ATPS without any busts, flight instructing, 9 years at a regional and now a captain at a major having done three type ratings along the way. Never busted anything and I can assure you it’s not because I’m a good pilot but I can also assure you that I know I’ve invested the time and energy to be 100% prepped before each and every checking event.

You have to CHAIR FLY every maneuver over and over and over. You have to know backwards the PTS and the requirements of each and every maneuver. You sit in your bedroom and use your phone to record yourself going through the procedure/maneuver, verbalize to yourself as you’re doing the maneuver: what instrument you are looking at and what corrections you are making. listen to the recording and make sure no step in the procedure/flow/callout is missed.

It takes hours and hours of preparation, On your own, visualizing every maneuver until everything is second nature. That will present itself in the checkride as a confident pilot who knows his $hit and even a DE that needs a couple of busts will hold off on busting you and bust the next guy instead of you (which is what you want).

For those of you out there that successfully get through Checkrides on a wing and a prayer without the work, congrats, you’re probably great pilots with natural skill, lots of aptitude, smart, great memories etc etc. For the rest of us mere mortals, it just takes work.


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