Help. Multiple Checkride Failures
 

Hey, All.

I’m having issues. I did most of my training at ATP and was going through a lot of personal stuff during that time. My dad was diagnosed with cancer and I was involved in a major car wreck. Excuses aside, I failed 5 checkrides throughout my training.

I’ve recently hit my 1500 hours and have found it incredibly difficult to get a 121 job. If my application doesn’t get rejected, I do in the interview. 5 failures is a lot. Above average. Most fail 2. This is not a reflection of the pilot that I am today. It’s been 3 years since my last failure, but still an issue.

I suppose I am here out of desperation. I need advice because the rejections are hitting me hard and I don’t know how to move on from here. Being an instructor is great, but it takes a toll on me and I’m at the end of my rope.

If you have any positive suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

The implication here is that you have failed every, or nearly every, check ride that you’ve ever taken at least once.

In my opinion, you won’t find a 121 carrier that you want to work for that wants to touch you. My suggestion if you’re serious about the career is start your own .. become THE BEST CFI that you can be, specialize in high performance or turbine aircraft, etc. Or, buy your own airplane and start a 135 Certificate. I think you’ll really struggle to find anyone reputable who wants to touch a pilot with five busts.

The problem is the liability factor. Imagine if you were involved in an accident/incident at an airline. When the public finds out that a pilot who had failed several checkrides was at the controls...well you see where I'm going. It would be a PR disaster.

My advice would be to find another job in aviation and/or continue to fly on the side or flight instruct. Make connections and maybe work your way into a charter/corporate gig. Keep going from there. Don't give up if this is your dream but also temper your expectations.

Good luck!

I disagree. You still have a chance. You may have to go to a 135 operator and get a type under your belt and do NOT fark this one up whatsoever. Get a good four or five years of 135 under your belt and then try for 121 and even then it may mean MESA. But you can recover.

Flying 135 sounds like good advice but certainly have trepidation about giving advice to someone who has failed 5 checkrides. At 1500 hours total time, sounds like fundamental issues of not mastering the basics. Don't want to see you get killed or heaven forbid, kill someone else! This profession isn't some video game where you can hit the reset button. I would consider 135 as a SIC if available to get some experience or even simulator instructor. In addition, approach an interview like a checkride with plenty of preparation!

Apply to every regional you can. I bet you get more than 1 offer.

You need to do some careful introspection. If you truly failed those rides because of personal circumstances, then there might be a way ahead.

If you failed because of poor work ethic, that can be fixed, but you probably need to over come lifelong bad habits.

If those failures represent poor aptitude, you probably need a different career.

The way ahead....

First off, it is essentially not conceivable that you would ever be hired by a legacy, SWA, FDX, UPS. Probably not by any second tier majors either. The best you'll do is a regional or ULCC. Might the pilot shortage improve your prospects? Maybe but I wouldn't bet your career on it.

Check ride failures never go away, and they are a huge screening factor. Kind of like herpes.

Keep trying to get on with any regional. In the meantime, try to get some turbine job, preferably 135. If you can accumulate several type ratings (at a couple different employers) and about 5k with ZERO training issues and no incidents or violations then you should be able to get a regional job. After several thousand trouble free hours as a regional PIC, you might be able to get a low-tier major job.

But you'll be on double secret probation until you reach your career destination airline, whatever that is. One hiccup and you'd be done I suspect.

Other option is part 91... that tends to be more personality driven, and there will be a pilot shortage in corporate & private aviation due to airline hiring for the next 20 years or so.

You’ll need to get into 135 on personal recommendations.
Although you can fail every ride as nobody is ever perfect, 5 fails is a lot.
Are you an MEI? If not, get it.
You check Instructor or asst Chief?
If not apply. Get on the FAA Safety team or whatever it’s called right now.
Join the Civil Air Patrol and network network network.
Get a job on merit and not background and keep your nose clean.
It’s not a question if you can or cannot do the job.

Here’s the difference between military schools and civilians ones. You wouldn’t get to five busts before getting a ticket home. If you had those personal problems, STOP training. That might well have been offered, certainly has at some military programs, but you should never have allowed it to progress that far and the school shouldn’t have, either.

Those failures won’t go away in the PRIA world. First, figure out why you failed; that means being real hard on yourself. Then, you’ll need years of professional flying, of any sort that will hire you, to maybe reach a regional or 135 job.

GF

This..........

But for now if your sick of flight instructing, go to Grand Canyon Airlines and fly their Caravan and Twotters for a couple years. Learn from their captains then get on with a Corporate 135 outfit for at least a few years after that. You can have a stellar career in the Corporate World if you want it. Fly nice equipment all over the world. You can also find some pretty shady places to work as well along the way. Its still not a bad place to be and you will feel fulfilled at the end. If you decide to apply along the way for a regional and get hired Awesome, but I do not think you will climb much higher than that with that many bust. I could be wrong, If its your dream go for it, but I am thinking you have a much better shot at Corporate 135 in the next couple years. Part 91 doesn't do Pria's so you could get away with not telling them about your bust.

We all have problems of some sort, they never seem to arrive at the times when our lives are the easiest. What separates most is how they handle those moments. Part of being a good pilot is being able to have a bad day with everything going wrong and then be able to block it out and deal with the flight at hand. Learn to not take your homelife to the cockpit. If its really got you down then stop, do not go fly. If you do not feel you can pass a checkride 100% in the future then do not take it, ever again. I do not care how much pressure you are getting. Get some more time and Slay that ***** when you are 100% sure your going to pass.

When I was in flight school my Dad was undergoing Stage 4 cancer. My ex wife had an appendectomy. About 3 months after her surgery she became pregnant by the electrician that came to fix a light while i was gone. You see **** happens to us all. Dont let **** happening outside affect your flying inside. Whatever you do never use excuses for why you failed a checkride. If asked tell them why you failed the checkride, I busted an altitude, I forgot to lift my wheels on climbout, I didnt know how to operate a Garmin. Whatever the reason for the failure is what they wanna know. Not what was happening in your life, my .02 cents.

Good Luck, you will do well

Interesting thread. How many checkride busts are common or won’t hinder your hiring ability?


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You’ve set yourself at the bottom of a very steep cliff.

IMO you need to show that you’re competent. Just being competent as a CFI isn’t going to cut it. You need to be taking MORE check rides, type ratings, CFII, CFIMEI, gilder, seaplane, etc as you can to show you can hack it and you really had extenuating circumstances. And passing current training isn’t good enough.

Start seeking additional check ride opportunities, ratings and licenses, and in perhaps 5-10 yrs, with a significantly improved track record, you might have additional opportunities

If you start collecting more busts perhaps this isn’t the field for you.

The unfortunate part of this is that ATP forces students to take their checkrides even if they are not ready. That was also probably a huge factor here.

1-2 max, depending on the airline. After that, it starts to rapidly narrow your options... for life.

If you want to work at DAL, don't fail any.

It also matters what kind of checkride, they'll have more tolerance for GA training checkrides, since part 91 training and checking is very inconsistent, you were new to avitaion, probably young, and that was a long time ago. You might get a little slack for your very first turbine 135/121 training event since you're new to that as well. After that, they expect you to know what you're getting into.

This is why it's important to do your research on schools and bottom-feeder airlines... some of them fail a lot of people.

Wow, I didn’t expect so many replies!

Thank you, all. It took me becoming an instructor to really know what it meant to be PIC. Personal issues aside, confidence and PIC mentality was a huge factor. I let the school “bully” me into checkrides not knowing that I actually had a choice. They gave me ultimatums, but now I know better.

I’m not giving excuses, I do own my failures. But had I known that I could have done all of this a different way, I would have. The biggest thing that has come from all of this is showing my students that they don’t have to go through that. That they have a choice.

I’m working on acquiring personal mentors. And will be sending my resume and application to every place imaginable. Possibly even create a cover letter that addresses these issues head on.

It sucks, but I don’t really think it’s over. Especially after what a few of you have said. Those positive words of encouragement make a bigger difference than you might think. So thank you.

This. 10 years from now if you've got multiple types and a ton of PIC with no additional busts they'll view this as something that happened early in your career and you out grew. If it continues then you don't have a shot. Add as much to your resume as possible without additional issues.

Do they really? What is their overall bust rate? If it’s high, the FAA will investigate the training and checking. The instructor recommending a student for a check is supposed to be signing off that the examiner is ready. If they’re forcing checks, that should be investigated. Either training or checking isn’t up to snuff. UPT busts often came back to the sign off IP. Lots os wash-out leave by never being sent up for the check.

GF

ATP will kick you out of school and keep your money if you tell them you are not ready for a checkride in many instances.

What is the bust rate?

GF

I'm pretty sure they do a lot of part 61 training, which has no FAA oversight as far as the school is concerned. An individual instructor might be subject to scrutiny if they had a lot of students bust, but in a big group like that it probably doesn't get noticed right away, and the CFI's are off to the airlines before they accumulate a lot of student busts.

If you’re sick of flight Instructor take a couple of days and ask yourself what you can do to improve it.
You may be doing it for a while.
And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Plenty of career instructors.
Your instructional experience will give you more insight into why you failed the rides the way you did.
How many students have you had and how many have you signed off and how many have failed?
Get that number down also.
Instrument and ME are also the most dangerous forms of flight instruct as you will find out.
Opportunities to learn and gain experience.
Keep in touch with former students as one of them may very well give you a lead one day.
If you were nice to them that is ;)

If you fail on the oral then retake and pass on the oral but fail on the flight portion, then after that pass on the part of the flight you screwed up on all for one rating, does that count as 2 busts or 1? Probably a dumb question just want to know so I can be as upfront as possible. I.e. Better to say I failed my commercial rating and leave it at that, or say I failed commercial twice once on oral once on flight.

No quick fix....5 busts out of 5 checkrides (PVT, Inst, COMM, Multi, CFI) does not bode well at all to any potential employer, regardless of the circumstances.

You need time, experience, and most importantly training records that will demonstrate your failures are behind you.....several years, a couple type ratings, recurrent training events, line checks, etc with no failures will help quite a bit. To get this, you’re gonna have to take something other guys in your place might not leap at, but you need to enthusiastically take it.

When you say 5 busts, are all of them actual Pink Slips from an examiner, or are we talking stage-checks and such?

Finally, do not get any speeding tickets, DUIs, etc.......adding anything to the file of busts will torpedo an already difficult career path. Do not bend metal either....anything that supports the conclusion an airline should look somewhere else for a pilot when they see 5 busts is very bad.

Two. Each attempt generates a pink slip which goes in your FAA record.

The airlines will have access to all of them, so you do have to be honest about it.

Yep, I know two ATP grads that have 5+ check ride failures. One now works for a 135 operation on a jet, so its not game over for OP!

"Flying a jet for a 135 operator" covers a very wide range...

Even your initial CFI one??

Isn't it almost a right of passage to bust that one on the first try??

I'm kind of joking, but kind of serious as well.

You might get away with one CFI bust with DAL (maybe even more if you had some sort of rock-star qualifications, like diversity). They seem to be screening for luck as much as talent, as far as training records.

But there is a Machiavellian motive for that... airlines know that one or two vs. zero checkride busts in general aviation days has essentially no predictive value as to your ability as a professional jet pilot years later... it's just statistical noise, aggravated by the wide variation in quality and consistency of training and checking in GA. But the public and the media don't know this, so airlines don't want a guy on staff whose record is going to look sensationally bad in a post-accident media-expose, or to the jury in the civil trial (ala Renslow).

I currently have four checkride failures all from GA. I failed my initial Private, Private multi add on, and my CFI single add on twice. That last one regarding my CFI was, as stated, not my initial. I passed my initial CFI the first time. I did the checkride as an MEI applicant. However, after obtaining my MEI, I ended up failing the single engine add on to my CFI twice. I am currently working as a FO at a Part 135 cargo company in a twin turbine aircraft and I didn't fail the training program. My plan is to become a captain and gain some twin turbine PIC. Overall, my question is could I still get hired at a regional like EDV or one of the AA wholly owneds with these credentials and past training record? What are my chances of getting on with a major like Delta? I know that four failures is a lot however I am wondering if I still might have a chance at a good regional or even any major. Thank you in advance to any who respond

DAL chance is probably 0%, unless the industry really changes or you have some seriously epic aviation or whole-person credentials. As for the rest of the Big-6, you might have a shot eventually if you accumulate thousands of hours, years of experience, and multiple type ratings.

Relatively "good" regionals, yes after some 135 TPIC. AA wholly-owned? I don't know, I think they may have hard standards for number of busts, you should ask around to see if anyone can share specifics.

There are lots of people who don’t bust the initial CFI....they’re smart enough not to take it til they’re ready.

Nick Foles said this after he won the super bowl. I think he’s spot on!

“I think the big thing is don’t be afraid to fail,” Foles said. “In our society today, with Instagram and Twitter, it’s a highlight. It’s all the good things. When you look at it, you have a bad day, you think your life isn’t as good, you’re failing. Failure is a part of life. It’s a part of building character and growing. Without failure, who would you be? I wouldn’t be up here if I hadn’t fallen thousands of times, made mistakes. We all are human. We all have weaknesses. Just being able to share that and be transparent.

“I know when people speak and share they’re weaknesses, I listen. Because I can (relate). I’m not perfect. I’m not Superman. We might be in the NFL and we might have just won the Super Bowl, but we all have daily struggles. That’s where my faith comes in. That’s where my family comes in. I think when you look at a struggle in your life, just know that it’s an opportunity for your character to grow.”

You stated that your checkride failures are not a reflection of the pilot you are today. Understood. What you need is something that does reflect the the pilot you are today, and that something will be found in building some distance and space and a spotless work history and track record. Three years is a start, but not a lot of time or distance.

There may be some valid reasons why your training was not a success, but you may also have some difficulty finding someone to listen to those reasons. First you need to get to that point, and what will get you there is establishing a strong work history. You can put the past behind you.

Others have noted that failed checkrides never go away, and they're correct. There's a balance to everything, however, and what you need right now is the ability to paint a picture of what you hope others will see in you.

Understand that the 121 world is neither the be-all nor end-all of aviation. There are many career paths, many choices. Not all of them are open to everyone; not everyone can find a military training billet. Not everyone has a degree. Not everyone has a future here or there, but that doesn't need to stay true forever, and likewise just because one direction is not the path, does not preclude another. Choose another method to skin the cat.

You can come back to the cat later, if you wish.

If you're instructing right now, look to 135. Look to ag, look to doing something else, somewhere, that involves your being vetted, checked, and approved under a program that's known and recognized. Go fly jumpers for a while. Spend a summer flying air attack on a fire contract. Go do air ambulance, cloud seeding, aerial photography or survey work.

The real question is how badly do you want it?

Did you go to " ALL ATPs"?
 

I've met many people that have multiple failures there.
I think some regional airlines will realize that some schools generate a high # of pink slips. Not sure what a major will think.

You didn’t answer yet.
It’s certainly not over yet but settle down.
You’re out of the fast lane.
Better get good at what you do before moving on.
I’ve missed two hiring booms in my career myself , I’ll never fly for Delta, get used to it.

And there are apparently many DPEs who make it a point to fail everyone on their first CFI-initial.

Yes, ATP is notorious for forcing students to take checkrides even if they are not prepared.

Try Mountain Air Cargo. Be willing to be assigned a base. It’s all C208. If you can fly basic IFR, you’ll do fine. If your basics are the root of the problem, it may be time to make tougher choices.

ATP strikes again!

I had a problem in this regard. I failed my initial commercial checkride twice by the same DPE. I did a little soul searching and resolved it to three different things:

Case 1) My flying skills are so poor that, despite my instructor’s best efforts, the FAA cannot certify me as a commercial pilot.

Case 2) I’m a competent pilot but was poorly trained by my CFIs and cannot be licensed by the FAA with my current flying standards.

Case 3) I’m a competent pilot, my CFIs trained me well but the DPE was gunning to fail me before the checkride even began.

So I went up with no less than three (3) CFIs who couldn’t find anything wrong with my flying ability. I then took the commercial checkride with a different DPE, who passed me with flying colors. Conclusion: the first DPE was a total prick and either trying to fail applicants or specifically part 61 applicants.

Now try explaining that to a potential employer.

I’ll continue on and get my CFI, CFII, MEI, maybe a seaplane rating or possibly add helicopter onto my list of checkride. If I fail another, I’ll give up on the idea of flying for a career.