Two 121 failures...any chance with the big 6?
 

Hello all. Long time lurker, but I don't post much these days. This one is a bit long-winded...my apologies😁 I'm a 12th year regional capt. I'll start off by saying I have two 121 failures.

I know you all will ask, so I'll briefly explain them. The first was a PC as an FO. After an ILS to a pub missed, once in the hold the CKA pulled the throttles back and said to give him a stall to the left. I did, but I recovered to 250 kts instead of the 210 we started at. I also did not remain in the hold since I leveled the wings to recover. He told me to re-enter the hold immediately. I cranked it over a bit too much and got a bank angle warning. That was it, pink slip.

The second, and worst of the two was my upgrade fed ride. We had to load ballast due to a fwd CG, which was rare in that airplane. It was close to departure time and I got in a hurry. I asked the ramp if it was OK to release the parking brake (to get on the clock) and they said yes, so I did. However, I forgot that they were still loading ballast, which I would have noticed if I'd run the before start check like I was supposed to. It was over before it began. It was a very stupid mistake from a brand new capt, and needless to say I never made that mistake again.

That was over 5 years ago. I passed the rechecks on both no problem. Since then I've had 5 PCs, an aircraft transition with another fed ride, and plenty of line checks, all without issue. I'm 37, have nearly 10K hrs with 4K 121 PIC, a masters degree, and plenty of letters of rec. I've been applying to 4 of the big 6 for years, and can't get a call...I'm sure the failures are why. The worst part of it is I can't even get to an interview to have a chance to explain them.

My question is, should I give up on the big 6 and shoot for an LCC? I currently drive to work, have enough seniority to hold a good schedule, and am making decent money. My regional flies for 3 legacies, which provides some job security. I really see no reason to leave unless a major calls. Job security, a decent amount of time at home, and earning potential are my three biggest concerns, in that order. I just keep seeing my peers moving on, and I'm happy for them, but I'm starting to feel left behind. I'm not sure if it's the right move to stay where I am and keep hoping. Thanks for your time.

Stalling in a hold should not be a PC event. Stalls, yes. Holds, yes. Stalling from a hold, maybe. Maintaining a hold while stalling, no. Was it an MV by chance? Sounds like not if no retraining. Reason I ask is that if you tell that story at an interview it *might* raise eyebrows, since none of those folks will have ever heard of a stalling & holding PC event. So you might want to come up with a way to rephrase that story. Was that your one-year PC?

Re. the fed ride: Dude what were you thinking??? The fed is not there to evaluate your on-time performance or block-hour padding. Ok, sorry had to say it. That one should be a straightforward lesson-learned about judgement and priorities.

The above comments are what pilot interviewers might be thinking.

The problem with two 121 busts is that, unlike GA, 121 training/checking is *relatively* consistent. So they might tune out a 91 bust or two as background noise in the distant past, but 121 busts are a bit more concerning. In both cases sounds like you were pretty inexperienced in your seat, so that helps. Five years in the past helps too.

I kind of doubt DAL or FDX is calling anytime soon, they can be picky. But things are trending in your favor with retirements ramping up faster than the system can replace them. I think you'd have a shot somewhere in the big six eventually.

My gut feel says 4K TPIC is a hair low in your position, so maybe stick around for another 2K and see what that gets you? Right now, I think you stand a better shot getting hired out of the left seat of an RJ than the right seat of a LCC. I had expected that to have changed by now, but I'm not seeing it.

But depending on where you are in life, might want to just get the move over with and settle in for the long haul. Most of the LCCs will provide a pretty good life by most standards (better than regionals), and they are all getting pay raises (real ones, not regional chump change). Also need to consider when your last type rating was... more than 3-5 years and you might be "stale" for the big six.

Get some interview prep if you haven't already.

This was the old PC format before AQP, where we knocked out all the emergencies/approaches/training maneuvers and stalls on the checkride, then did a few other maneuvers on the LOFT afterwards. I never was a fan of that format because A) it wasn't realistic, and B) it led to some confusion like the situation I ran into. Regardless, I got a pink slip and have to explain for it.

I absolutely agree about the second one. Just a bad day and a dumb mistake. I remember that day every time ops or gate agents start getting antsy around departure time. I try to get out on time, but they can wait, everything needs to be done first, and that's exactly what I've told them on multiple occasions.

I suppose I'll just keep waiting. It's hard to see myself going back to year 1 tribulations unless it's for that dream job. Many of my colleagues who have moved on to LCCs and ACMI are still trying for the big 6 without much luck as well. I've done some interview prep and one job fair, but it was years ago, when I thought surely the call was coming soon...that's long since faded. I suppose dusting off my briefcase, suit and prep notes might be a good idea. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.

Just wanted to chime in and say I feel bad for you. I know you’re not looking for sympathy, but just realize there are others out there in your shoes also banging our heads against a wall.
Best of luck.
PC

Well....let me put it this way.
There’s no guarantee they’d give you the time of day without two checkride failures. There’s always something.
Sometimes the computer just doesn’t like you that day.
I know that sounds ridiculous buts it’s the only explanation that I could come up with not getting any hits.
Doesn’t meant you should give up though. Stay (semi) prepared just don’t bet all your eggs on it.

You should start pounding the pavement, do job fairs with emphasis on company in-house events. Hard to get hired if you don't.

You being a 12 year CA I wouldn’t recommend going to an AA WO to try to go the flow route (which is what I would if you were relatively junior where the pay and QOL hit wouldn’t be as drastic)... the pilot shortage will start affecting airlines more favorably by the time your 9-12 year flow wait is up.

If you’re comfortable then stay, but if you want earnings potential JetBlue and Spirit just got some healthy pay raises. I have a friend who had two 121 failures and got a call from one of those as well Frontier.

Food for thought but there seems to be more acceptance of folks with blemishes on their records outside of the big three and Fedex/UPS. SWA, Spirit, JetBlue, Alaska and potentially Frontier would be on my list as well in you position (location depending).

Good luck!

DL posted some hard numbers and there’s been tiny glimpses of other flight times that guys have had when they got hired. DL was roughly 7500 TT and 4100 PIC. Not 121 PIC but total PIC. I have to think your time is in the ball park. As Rickair said I’d plant myself in front of every airline I’m interested at any job fair/conference. If you don’t you can’t say “I did everything I could.”

When was your last new full training course? More than five years and the computer might be punishing you. Go get new ratings and see if they, as well as face time at job fairs/conferences, moves the needle.
Easiest additional ratings to acquire, one every six months - private glider, private SES, commercial glider, MES.

Any CKA prospects? That’s a big plus.

Good luck.

Ummm, better research F9 carefully... :eek:

The parking brake release is going to be tough to explain in the interview. Lots of issues there including falsifying flight time. I know if you explain it the way you did here you will bust a interview at Delta.
I have noted that many of the regionals do this but I can’t even imagine doing this with a fed looking over your shoulder.

Im new to 121 pax flying and I see plenty of cpts releasing the brake early.

I feel for you. Honestly dont see 2 checkride busts years ago being a big deal, thats how you learn. Sucks hiring is still hyper competitive and thats the discriminator.

Hopefully you get a call, good luck

On a side note, I have a friend with a felony (stole a car) from 25 yrs ago get hired by 3 legacies recently. Thought he would never get a call but he finally did and all within 2 months of each other

But don't do it on your checkride.

There are too many guys out there with experience, hard to discriminate. At least checkride busts might have relevance to aviation, unlike volunteer work or affirmative action criteria.

That's about how long I'd expect it would take to get over something like that, assuming he was a teenager.

Piece of check airman advice—get in the habit of doing it right by the book BEFORE “going into business for yourself”. I’d bet more recurrent and line checks get busted over bad habits developed “on the line” than actual knowledge deficiencies. Know how to do the task correctly. If it’s done wrong, at least, make a mental note so the correct way is ingrained. Flying has lots of ways to accomplish tasks, but many can innocently get you a bust.

GF

The above is great advice. I am not smart enough to learn two different ways to do things.

I was just cutting the guy some slack and showing some compassion.

Yup. Learn it right the first time, then practice it on every leg. If you must make minor deviations, each time you do so silently remind yourself that you're about to deviate from SOP... then hopefully you can catch yourself before you do it on a checkride.

Normalization of deviance and all that…
If something isn’t going to be standard, just say it out loud so that the other guys know that you know, and you have a specific reason for changing it at that point time.
I.e., putting the landing gear down before flaps come out in order to slow down, intercepting the localizer in FMS, temporarily exceeding a normal descent rate.

That too...

We used to do the old school whiz wheel and paper W&B forms on that airplane, which usually took awhile once we got the bag and pax counts. It was standard to release the brake to block out by departure time and hand the paperwork out the window. As long as the before start check was done prior, and you verified with the ramp that it was safe to do so. Not justifying it, but that was what we used to do. My before start check was not complete however, and ballast was still being loaded. Like I said, just a dumb mistake, one that probably has delayed my career for years. So it goes.

Did I learn from it? Absolutely. Since then I've never allowed myself to be rushed by anything. I've gotten into it with a few pushy gate agents over the years because of this, and sometimes we are out 2 mins late because since that day I'm no longer willing to play those games. But everything is done correctly before the brake is released.

Safety-related items like the parking brake and the rotating beacon should never have been linked to crew pay or on-time statistics. It creates a dangerous conflict of interest, and will eventually lead to injuries. :(

I have two 121 failures that were over 10 years ago now. I’ve got called by two of the big six with the events on my application. Only one asked about them and moved on with the interview. The other didn’t even care to ask about them.

My good friend also had two 121 busts. He forgot to put the O2 mask on while the CA was out of the flight deck and the fed up front busted him. He also failed his upgrade ride and had to go back to being an FO for a while. He’s a Delta now. So I think you have a chance. Perhaps talk with a consultant or two on how best to present the failures.


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I agree with you. I definitely learned my lesson. I may be flying the skies over the Great Corn Sea in an RJ for the rest of my days because of it😄 Not that that is so terrible (I could be digging ditches somewhere), but to be so close to that dream job and unable to get there bothers me.