Two 121 failures...any chance with the big 6?
09-05-2018, 12:52 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E170 CA
Posts: 200
Two 121 failures...any chance with the big 6?
Hello all. Long time lurker, but I don't post much these days. This one is a bit long-winded...my apologies😁 I'm a 12th year regional capt. I'll start off by saying I have two 121 failures.
I know you all will ask, so I'll briefly explain them. The first was a PC as an FO. After an ILS to a pub missed, once in the hold the CKA pulled the throttles back and said to give him a stall to the left. I did, but I recovered to 250 kts instead of the 210 we started at. I also did not remain in the hold since I leveled the wings to recover. He told me to re-enter the hold immediately. I cranked it over a bit too much and got a bank angle warning. That was it, pink slip.
The second, and worst of the two was my upgrade fed ride. We had to load ballast due to a fwd CG, which was rare in that airplane. It was close to departure time and I got in a hurry. I asked the ramp if it was OK to release the parking brake (to get on the clock) and they said yes, so I did. However, I forgot that they were still loading ballast, which I would have noticed if I'd run the before start check like I was supposed to. It was over before it began. It was a very stupid mistake from a brand new capt, and needless to say I never made that mistake again.
That was over 5 years ago. I passed the rechecks on both no problem. Since then I've had 5 PCs, an aircraft transition with another fed ride, and plenty of line checks, all without issue. I'm 37, have nearly 10K hrs with 4K 121 PIC, a masters degree, and plenty of letters of rec. I've been applying to 4 of the big 6 for years, and can't get a call...I'm sure the failures are why. The worst part of it is I can't even get to an interview to have a chance to explain them.
My question is, should I give up on the big 6 and shoot for an LCC? I currently drive to work, have enough seniority to hold a good schedule, and am making decent money. My regional flies for 3 legacies, which provides some job security. I really see no reason to leave unless a major calls. Job security, a decent amount of time at home, and earning potential are my three biggest concerns, in that order. I just keep seeing my peers moving on, and I'm happy for them, but I'm starting to feel left behind. I'm not sure if it's the right move to stay where I am and keep hoping. Thanks for your time.
I know you all will ask, so I'll briefly explain them. The first was a PC as an FO. After an ILS to a pub missed, once in the hold the CKA pulled the throttles back and said to give him a stall to the left. I did, but I recovered to 250 kts instead of the 210 we started at. I also did not remain in the hold since I leveled the wings to recover. He told me to re-enter the hold immediately. I cranked it over a bit too much and got a bank angle warning. That was it, pink slip.
The second, and worst of the two was my upgrade fed ride. We had to load ballast due to a fwd CG, which was rare in that airplane. It was close to departure time and I got in a hurry. I asked the ramp if it was OK to release the parking brake (to get on the clock) and they said yes, so I did. However, I forgot that they were still loading ballast, which I would have noticed if I'd run the before start check like I was supposed to. It was over before it began. It was a very stupid mistake from a brand new capt, and needless to say I never made that mistake again.
That was over 5 years ago. I passed the rechecks on both no problem. Since then I've had 5 PCs, an aircraft transition with another fed ride, and plenty of line checks, all without issue. I'm 37, have nearly 10K hrs with 4K 121 PIC, a masters degree, and plenty of letters of rec. I've been applying to 4 of the big 6 for years, and can't get a call...I'm sure the failures are why. The worst part of it is I can't even get to an interview to have a chance to explain them.
My question is, should I give up on the big 6 and shoot for an LCC? I currently drive to work, have enough seniority to hold a good schedule, and am making decent money. My regional flies for 3 legacies, which provides some job security. I really see no reason to leave unless a major calls. Job security, a decent amount of time at home, and earning potential are my three biggest concerns, in that order. I just keep seeing my peers moving on, and I'm happy for them, but I'm starting to feel left behind. I'm not sure if it's the right move to stay where I am and keep hoping. Thanks for your time.
09-05-2018, 01:31 PM
#2
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,277
Stalling in a hold should not be a PC event. Stalls, yes. Holds, yes. Stalling from a hold, maybe. Maintaining a hold while stalling, no. Was it an MV by chance? Sounds like not if no retraining. Reason I ask is that if you tell that story at an interview it *might* raise eyebrows, since none of those folks will have ever heard of a stalling & holding PC event. So you might want to come up with a way to rephrase that story. Was that your one-year PC?
Re. the fed ride: Dude what were you thinking??? The fed is not there to evaluate your on-time performance or block-hour padding. Ok, sorry had to say it. That one should be a straightforward lesson-learned about judgement and priorities.
The above comments are what pilot interviewers might be thinking.
The problem with two 121 busts is that, unlike GA, 121 training/checking is *relatively* consistent. So they might tune out a 91 bust or two as background noise in the distant past, but 121 busts are a bit more concerning. In both cases sounds like you were pretty inexperienced in your seat, so that helps. Five years in the past helps too.
I kind of doubt DAL or FDX is calling anytime soon, they can be picky. But things are trending in your favor with retirements ramping up faster than the system can replace them. I think you'd have a shot somewhere in the big six eventually.
My gut feel says 4K TPIC is a hair low in your position, so maybe stick around for another 2K and see what that gets you? Right now, I think you stand a better shot getting hired out of the left seat of an RJ than the right seat of a LCC. I had expected that to have changed by now, but I'm not seeing it.
But depending on where you are in life, might want to just get the move over with and settle in for the long haul. Most of the LCCs will provide a pretty good life by most standards (better than regionals), and they are all getting pay raises (real ones, not regional chump change). Also need to consider when your last type rating was... more than 3-5 years and you might be "stale" for the big six.
Get some interview prep if you haven't already.
Re. the fed ride: Dude what were you thinking??? The fed is not there to evaluate your on-time performance or block-hour padding. Ok, sorry had to say it. That one should be a straightforward lesson-learned about judgement and priorities.
The above comments are what pilot interviewers might be thinking.
The problem with two 121 busts is that, unlike GA, 121 training/checking is *relatively* consistent. So they might tune out a 91 bust or two as background noise in the distant past, but 121 busts are a bit more concerning. In both cases sounds like you were pretty inexperienced in your seat, so that helps. Five years in the past helps too.
I kind of doubt DAL or FDX is calling anytime soon, they can be picky. But things are trending in your favor with retirements ramping up faster than the system can replace them. I think you'd have a shot somewhere in the big six eventually.
My gut feel says 4K TPIC is a hair low in your position, so maybe stick around for another 2K and see what that gets you? Right now, I think you stand a better shot getting hired out of the left seat of an RJ than the right seat of a LCC. I had expected that to have changed by now, but I'm not seeing it.
But depending on where you are in life, might want to just get the move over with and settle in for the long haul. Most of the LCCs will provide a pretty good life by most standards (better than regionals), and they are all getting pay raises (real ones, not regional chump change). Also need to consider when your last type rating was... more than 3-5 years and you might be "stale" for the big six.
Get some interview prep if you haven't already.
09-05-2018, 06:20 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E170 CA
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Stalling in a hold should not be a PC event. Stalls, yes. Holds, yes. Stalling from a hold, maybe. Maintaining a hold while stalling, no. Was it an MV by chance? Sounds like not if no retraining. Reason I ask is that if you tell that story at an interview it *might* raise eyebrows, since none of those folks will have ever heard of a stalling & holding PC event. So you might want to come up with a way to rephrase that story. Was that your one-year PC?
Re. the fed ride: Dude what were you thinking??? The fed is not there to evaluate your on-time performance or block-hour padding. Ok, sorry had to say it. That one should be a straightforward lesson-learned about judgement and priorities.
The above comments are what pilot interviewers might be thinking.
The problem with two 121 busts is that, unlike GA, 121 training/checking is *relatively* consistent. So they might tune out a 91 bust or two as background noise in the distant past, but 121 busts are a bit more concerning. In both cases sounds like you were pretty inexperienced in your seat, so that helps. Five years in the past helps too.
I kind of doubt DAL or FDX is calling anytime soon, they can be picky. But things are trending in your favor with retirements ramping up faster than the system can replace them. I think you'd have a shot somewhere in the big six eventually.
My gut feel says 4K TPIC is a hair low in your position, so maybe stick around for another 2K and see what that gets you? Right now, I think you stand a better shot getting hired out of the left seat of an RJ than the right seat of a LCC. I had expected that to have changed by now, but I'm not seeing it.
But depending on where you are in life, might want to just get the move over with and settle in for the long haul. Most of the LCCs will provide a pretty good life by most standards (better than regionals), and they are all getting pay raises (real ones, not regional chump change). Also need to consider when your last type rating was... more than 3-5 years and you might be "stale" for the big six.
Get some interview prep if you haven't already.
Re. the fed ride: Dude what were you thinking??? The fed is not there to evaluate your on-time performance or block-hour padding. Ok, sorry had to say it. That one should be a straightforward lesson-learned about judgement and priorities.
The above comments are what pilot interviewers might be thinking.
The problem with two 121 busts is that, unlike GA, 121 training/checking is *relatively* consistent. So they might tune out a 91 bust or two as background noise in the distant past, but 121 busts are a bit more concerning. In both cases sounds like you were pretty inexperienced in your seat, so that helps. Five years in the past helps too.
I kind of doubt DAL or FDX is calling anytime soon, they can be picky. But things are trending in your favor with retirements ramping up faster than the system can replace them. I think you'd have a shot somewhere in the big six eventually.
My gut feel says 4K TPIC is a hair low in your position, so maybe stick around for another 2K and see what that gets you? Right now, I think you stand a better shot getting hired out of the left seat of an RJ than the right seat of a LCC. I had expected that to have changed by now, but I'm not seeing it.
But depending on where you are in life, might want to just get the move over with and settle in for the long haul. Most of the LCCs will provide a pretty good life by most standards (better than regionals), and they are all getting pay raises (real ones, not regional chump change). Also need to consider when your last type rating was... more than 3-5 years and you might be "stale" for the big six.
Get some interview prep if you haven't already.
I absolutely agree about the second one. Just a bad day and a dumb mistake. I remember that day every time ops or gate agents start getting antsy around departure time. I try to get out on time, but they can wait, everything needs to be done first, and that's exactly what I've told them on multiple occasions.
I suppose I'll just keep waiting. It's hard to see myself going back to year 1 tribulations unless it's for that dream job. Many of my colleagues who have moved on to LCCs and ACMI are still trying for the big 6 without much luck as well. I've done some interview prep and one job fair, but it was years ago, when I thought surely the call was coming soon...that's long since faded. I suppose dusting off my briefcase, suit and prep notes might be a good idea. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.
09-05-2018, 07:15 PM
#4
Layover Master
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,310
Just wanted to chime in and say I feel bad for you. I know you’re not looking for sympathy, but just realize there are others out there in your shoes also banging our heads against a wall.
Best of luck.
PC
Best of luck.
PC
09-05-2018, 10:47 PM
#5
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,083
Well....let me put it this way.
There’s no guarantee they’d give you the time of day without two checkride failures. There’s always something.
Sometimes the computer just doesn’t like you that day.
I know that sounds ridiculous buts it’s the only explanation that I could come up with not getting any hits.
Doesn’t meant you should give up though. Stay (semi) prepared just don’t bet all your eggs on it.
There’s no guarantee they’d give you the time of day without two checkride failures. There’s always something.
Sometimes the computer just doesn’t like you that day.
I know that sounds ridiculous buts it’s the only explanation that I could come up with not getting any hits.
Doesn’t meant you should give up though. Stay (semi) prepared just don’t bet all your eggs on it.
09-06-2018, 06:27 AM
#6
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,277
Originally Posted by sargeanb
I've done some interview prep and one job fair, but it was years ago, when I thought surely the call was coming soon...that's long since faded. I suppose dusting off my briefcase, suit and prep notes might be a good idea. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.
09-06-2018, 06:51 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,898
Originally Posted by sargeanb
Hello all. Long time lurker, but I don't post much these days. This one is a bit long-winded...my apologies😁 I'm a 12th year regional capt. I'll start off by saying I have two 121 failures.
I know you all will ask, so I'll briefly explain them. The first was a PC as an FO. After an ILS to a pub missed, once in the hold the CKA pulled the throttles back and said to give him a stall to the left. I did, but I recovered to 250 kts instead of the 210 we started at. I also did not remain in the hold since I leveled the wings to recover. He told me to re-enter the hold immediately. I cranked it over a bit too much and got a bank angle warning. That was it, pink slip.
The second, and worst of the two was my upgrade fed ride. We had to load ballast due to a fwd CG, which was rare in that airplane. It was close to departure time and I got in a hurry. I asked the ramp if it was OK to release the parking brake (to get on the clock) and they said yes, so I did. However, I forgot that they were still loading ballast, which I would have noticed if I'd run the before start check like I was supposed to. It was over before it began. It was a very stupid mistake from a brand new capt, and needless to say I never made that mistake again.
That was over 5 years ago. I passed the rechecks on both no problem. Since then I've had 5 PCs, an aircraft transition with another fed ride, and plenty of line checks, all without issue. I'm 37, have nearly 10K hrs with 4K 121 PIC, a masters degree, and plenty of letters of rec. I've been applying to 4 of the big 6 for years, and can't get a call...I'm sure the failures are why. The worst part of it is I can't even get to an interview to have a chance to explain them.
My question is, should I give up on the big 6 and shoot for an LCC? I currently drive to work, have enough seniority to hold a good schedule, and am making decent money. My regional flies for 3 legacies, which provides some job security. I really see no reason to leave unless a major calls. Job security, a decent amount of time at home, and earning potential are my three biggest concerns, in that order. I just keep seeing my peers moving on, and I'm happy for them, but I'm starting to feel left behind. I'm not sure if it's the right move to stay where I am and keep hoping. Thanks for your time.
I know you all will ask, so I'll briefly explain them. The first was a PC as an FO. After an ILS to a pub missed, once in the hold the CKA pulled the throttles back and said to give him a stall to the left. I did, but I recovered to 250 kts instead of the 210 we started at. I also did not remain in the hold since I leveled the wings to recover. He told me to re-enter the hold immediately. I cranked it over a bit too much and got a bank angle warning. That was it, pink slip.
The second, and worst of the two was my upgrade fed ride. We had to load ballast due to a fwd CG, which was rare in that airplane. It was close to departure time and I got in a hurry. I asked the ramp if it was OK to release the parking brake (to get on the clock) and they said yes, so I did. However, I forgot that they were still loading ballast, which I would have noticed if I'd run the before start check like I was supposed to. It was over before it began. It was a very stupid mistake from a brand new capt, and needless to say I never made that mistake again.
That was over 5 years ago. I passed the rechecks on both no problem. Since then I've had 5 PCs, an aircraft transition with another fed ride, and plenty of line checks, all without issue. I'm 37, have nearly 10K hrs with 4K 121 PIC, a masters degree, and plenty of letters of rec. I've been applying to 4 of the big 6 for years, and can't get a call...I'm sure the failures are why. The worst part of it is I can't even get to an interview to have a chance to explain them.
My question is, should I give up on the big 6 and shoot for an LCC? I currently drive to work, have enough seniority to hold a good schedule, and am making decent money. My regional flies for 3 legacies, which provides some job security. I really see no reason to leave unless a major calls. Job security, a decent amount of time at home, and earning potential are my three biggest concerns, in that order. I just keep seeing my peers moving on, and I'm happy for them, but I'm starting to feel left behind. I'm not sure if it's the right move to stay where I am and keep hoping. Thanks for your time.
If you’re comfortable then stay, but if you want earnings potential JetBlue and Spirit just got some healthy pay raises. I have a friend who had two 121 failures and got a call from one of those as well Frontier.
Food for thought but there seems to be more acceptance of folks with blemishes on their records outside of the big three and Fedex/UPS. SWA, Spirit, JetBlue, Alaska and potentially Frontier would be on my list as well in you position (location depending).
Good luck!
09-06-2018, 07:01 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,213
DL posted some hard numbers and there’s been tiny glimpses of other flight times that guys have had when they got hired. DL was roughly 7500 TT and 4100 PIC. Not 121 PIC but total PIC. I have to think your time is in the ball park. As Rickair said I’d plant myself in front of every airline I’m interested at any job fair/conference. If you don’t you can’t say “I did everything I could.”
When was your last new full training course? More than five years and the computer might be punishing you. Go get new ratings and see if they, as well as face time at job fairs/conferences, moves the needle.
Easiest additional ratings to acquire, one every six months - private glider, private SES, commercial glider, MES.
Any CKA prospects? That’s a big plus.
Good luck.
When was your last new full training course? More than five years and the computer might be punishing you. Go get new ratings and see if they, as well as face time at job fairs/conferences, moves the needle.
Easiest additional ratings to acquire, one every six months - private glider, private SES, commercial glider, MES.
Any CKA prospects? That’s a big plus.
Good luck.
Last edited by Sliceback; 09-06-2018 at 07:38 AM. Reason: Typos
09-06-2018, 07:13 AM
#9
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,277
Originally Posted by Otterbox
You being a 12 year CA I wouldn’t recommend going to an AA WO to try to go the flow route (which is what I would if you were relatively junior where the pay and QOL hit wouldn’t be as drastic)... the pilot shortage will start affecting airlines more favorably by the time your 9-12 year flow wait is up.
If you’re comfortable then stay, but if you want earnings potential JetBlue and Spirit just got some healthy pay raises. I have a friend who had two 121 failures and got a call from one of those as well Frontier.
Food for thought but there seems to be more acceptance of folks with blemishes on their records outside of the big three and Fedex/UPS. SWA, Spirit, JetBlue, Alaska and potentially Frontier would be on my list as well in you position (location depending).
Good luck!
If you’re comfortable then stay, but if you want earnings potential JetBlue and Spirit just got some healthy pay raises. I have a friend who had two 121 failures and got a call from one of those as well Frontier.
Food for thought but there seems to be more acceptance of folks with blemishes on their records outside of the big three and Fedex/UPS. SWA, Spirit, JetBlue, Alaska and potentially Frontier would be on my list as well in you position (location depending).
Good luck!
09-07-2018, 05:26 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
The parking brake release is going to be tough to explain in the interview. Lots of issues there including falsifying flight time. I know if you explain it the way you did here you will bust a interview at Delta.
I have noted that many of the regionals do this but I can’t even imagine doing this with a fed looking over your shoulder.
I have noted that many of the regionals do this but I can’t even imagine doing this with a fed looking over your shoulder.
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