121 failure
 

I just finished a failure with an untrained captain and who is going for upgrade and myself. The captain programmed the fms wrong, disregarded a checklist coming into land, then him turned the wrong way while I was working head down during taxi. How can I fail from this?. How much does this affect me? I had one fail in private training and now one now on my ATP checkride. I'm sick to my stomach. The captain wants to try and challenge it because it was caused by the sim instructor changing everything as we were walking in the sim then giving us 200kt winds so we had no time to set up. Can you even protest an iacra checkride?

At any point during this checkride did you voice your concerns to any of the above actions?
You most likely won’t hear from FedEx, UPS, Delta, United, American, Southwest, jetBlue, Spirit, Or any reputable well paying 121 carrier for some time. Especially not if you tell the story as you did(‘it was the other guys fault’).
Hopefully the both of you work better together in protest of the ride than you did when you were on the ride!

I protested that something didn't look right on his fms but I could not pick what it was. With the decent checklist i called for it but I got lost in everything that it wasn't done as we were trying to get ready for a cat 2 approach. I absolutely could be better I'm not saying that, just it is hard to swallow at the moment.

I think all or at least almost all of us have had the 200 kt TW in the sim to speed things up in a LOE. Generally isn’t a problem if you guys are preparing things in advance... But I can see how that could devolve into a mess if the crew wasn’t prepared.

SkyWest? From what I’ve heard it sounds like some of their sim instructors.


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If it’s a legit failure and you 2 go crying thinking you were screwed, you might be looking for a new carrier all together at the end of it. Not saying don’t protest if they actually did you wrong, but I honestly don’t think that was the case.

You said he turned the wrong way while you were heads down on taxi. I can see them easily saying that you’re just at as much fault as he was. Same with the FMS and the checklist. It’s your certificate at stake as well as his when you’re on the line. If you’re seeing something wrong you need to address it until it’s fixed. You can’t just say, something looks funny here, and move on.

Biggest thing is if this failure sticks you’re going to have to fix your story. Unless you’re at a carrier with flow, you won’t get through an interview at anyone better than ULCC. The failure is on your record so it’s your learning experience. Gotta own it.

Do your best to pass the re-check. If you don't and get fired it will cause even bigger problems for you.

Out of curiosity, do you think you’ll share responsibility once online if the Capt. turns the wrong way or hits something while taxiing, or if he programs the FMS wrong and you don’t catch it?

Your job is to be the voice that says “we're rushing....let’s do a turn in holding or get re-vectored....something isn’t right with your FMS”.....in a 2 pilot airplane, the blame is shared....you knew something wasn’t right and continued the approach....is that how you’d you do it on a dark and stormy night when it’s not a video game and there’s 75 passengers behind you?

You need to own it....you screwed up. Pass the re-check, and move on.

Pilot monitoring...


monitor
verb [ T ]
UK /ˈmɒn.ɪ.tər/ US /ˈmɑː.nə.t̬ɚ/

C1
to watch and check a situation carefully for a period of time in order to discover something about it:


monitoring


Supervising activities in progress to ensure they are on-course and on-schedule in meeting the objectives and performance targets.

The one I can think of is actually a pretty good guy and good instructor. But he has utterly no mercy on weak sisters. And I'm OK with that.

If you get rushed, request a hold, use the phrase "unable" or whatever it takes. Some instructors will put you into a difficult circumstance to see what you do.
You must treat it as real world including monitoring duties and speaking up against the captain using crm.

This ^^^
My last sim was a LOFT and we both caught the sim instructor trying to set us up for a “dive & drive” with a runway change after getting us off the arrival.
I’m sorry but this sounds like a good call.

You are speaking out on nonsense. It wasn't on any approach, it wasn't proper because it had a no link and didn't sequence mid flight which I corrected before we ever got there. I am voicing things here because I'm curious if this has happened to others and next steps. I on the line will be with a captain who is qualified for the seat.

Just learn from this and pass the recheck. I don’t think your career is over. I’m concerned with the fact you don’t think this should be a failure for you as well. You’re in a crew environment now. There should be checks and balances. Everyone makes mistakes when flying the line. It doesn’t matter the seat they sit in. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen competent captains make mistakes. At the end of the day we’re a team. So, go and be a team player!

I only know what you posted, but again, you need to own it. The examiner felt whatever happened you both deserved to fail. The FMS not sequencing could be a problem if it results in a gross navigation error while you’re 1000 miles from shore in NAT Airspace. Being heads down while the CA makes a wrong turn could be a problem if you bring Chicago Ohare departures to a grinding halt while they look for a tow bar and a tug with a radio to fix your screw up. Missing a checklist item while flying a CAT3 autoland in 300RVR could be a problem. Own it. You deserved to fail.

As far as depending on the fully qualified Captain, he/she is human and can make a mistake just like you. I’m still waiting for my first perfect flight. The idea is that between you and the CA, you can both trap errors and complete the flight...anyone can have an off day, But the other pilot steps it up and keeps things safe.

Pass the re-check, use it as a learning experience, and move forward...you’re not the first and won’t be the last to bust a ride, but the attitude that you didn’t deserve to fail will not help you.

The plane was in an unintended aircraft state during your checkride. Specifically, there was a taxiway incursion at the very least, and maybe a runway incursion depending on where the captain turned the plane. Regardless of the reason, you didn't stop him. That alone is a fair bust.

When you're on the line, you'll run into the same thing. Most captains know what they're doing. There are a handful who don't, and you'll be responsible for making sure that they don't get you violated or worse.

You'll probably find yourself on a slippery slope if you challenge this. Your best bets are to own the failure, learn from it, and not make the mistake again. If you keep the rest of your record clean, then getting an interview down the road with a major shouldn't be as hard as some of these other guys are saying.

I have a 121 failure and I am at a major airline FWIW.
Do well from here on out. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, you will replay it in your head 1000 times. Yeah, you will make yourself believe it's unjust and shouldn't have happened. I've done all that. I get it. Don't let it eat away at you though and own you.
Make your resume stand out. Overcome it. I did more to get my job than others did because I had to make up for lost points. Let this failure be an opportunity to force you to become an even better pilot and better applicant than the next guy/gal.

By the way.
You can protest a checkride under certain circumstances.
For instance the examiner asked you to perform a task which is not to be tested on.
Examiner also cannot make up their own tolerances.
A checkride is a choreographed dance that is rehearsed and clear to all parties.
They are allowed to give you “realistic distractions”.
Could be anything from a hellacious tailwind to a minor malfunction that requires attention and a change in STAR or runway change.
An accident or incident is never caused by a single event it’s always a chain.
The sim instructor (when you’re rehearsing) and the examiners job is to string a couple of these links in the chain together.
Purpose being is to find out if you have the situational awareness to break the chain.
If you keep stumbling along while the examiner is connecting the links......

If this would have been a real flight you would have been invited for coffee and cookies with the Chief Pilot and your POI. That’s a fail.

But didn't you want to be at FedEx or Ups?

Sure, I’d like to be. But I’m happy where I’m at, and no one knows if those places ever will/would have called. I got an offer at a major airline and I took it.

Just because you’re with a guy qualified in the left seat doesn’t necessarily make a difference. Think of it this way. The guy in the seat next to you on the checkride probably has been living, eating, and breathing the FOM, POH, and profiles for the last month or so preparing for the ride. That person is may be better prepared than the 30 year captain you might get paired with on a reserve assignment

I was given a piece of advice many years ago in this industry.

"Your only job in the sim is to get your partner through training."

You both donked this up and both of you failed it, and frankly, it sounds legitimate. If you believe challenging it will reverse the outcome, go for it. But to me, you sound arrogant and whiny.

I agree, drop the "It's his fault," attitude pronto. Nothing turns an interviewers stomach like a whiny, blaming pilot applicant. Also, is English your first language?

RadialGal