135 SEL vs Multi Time
 

Hi all,
I am currently working with a 135 VFR carrier flying a Cherokee 6. Unfortunately, none of our routes are over 50NM, and their is no ability for upgrade as we do not own any other equipment.

My dilemma is I anticipate joining a 121 regional in the states as soon as possible . I currently have 1000 hours, but only 50 of which are multi-engine. But, since I was lucky and hired with fairly low time, I have logged 300 hours 135 PIC, 250 of those are at night. Would it be worth more to hiring departments to continue to accumulate 135 PIC time, or head back to instructing to attempt to find multi and X-C time.

Any advice is appreciated,

I don't recall any regionals being too particular about XC time, I suspect they all just want 100 hours or so, if they even specify an amount (check their web sites to be sure).

135 time is good, but only up to a point in ASEL. It wold make you more competitive than a 1000 hour ASEL CFI, but ME time is and always has been the holy grail for regional employment when jobs are hard to find.

Especially with congress making requirements to "emphasize" ME experience in airline hiring, I would be looking into MEI or another 135 job. When you hit 1200 with 135 experience you should be competitive for 135 operations with larger airplanes.

Of course apply to regionals in the meantime, but any non-bottom-feeder regional is going to require 100 ME, and 300-500 will probably be the competitive numbers.

I got my first airline job under similar circumstances, and several hundred ME hours is what made the phone ring.

Hey man, I am NOT positive, that this is true.... But I was speaking with a DPE the other week, and we got to talking about logging cross country time... He said after the Commercial, any flight that you land at another airport is technically crossed country time. I really can't find any FAR denying it... I'd double check that, you might have a lot of crossed country time under your belt...

Very incorrect. When pursuing a certificate or rating to be considered XC time it must be greater than 50nm. For the purposes of all other flying to be considered XC all you need to do is take off frome one airport and land at another even if it's a mile away. All my 135 time is XC and since I have my ATP I don't even bother logging greater than 50 anymore.

Yeah but whats the FAR saying that? I'm not arguing for or against, it I'm saying I can't find one...

Look at the definition of "Cross Country" in 1.1. Basically two different airports using some sort of navigation.

Then go to part 61 and read the requirements for any certificate or rating where a cross country flight is specified. It specifies a minimum distance. Most are over 50nm. Some are 250, 300, etc...but most are over 50.

It isn't that a cross country flight (by definition) is over 50nm. It's that the certificate or rating requires the specified cross country flight to be a minimum of ___ miles. For the ATP it's something like 500 hours of cross country flight of either "at least" or "more than" 50nm (I can't remember how that's worded exactly...been a while).

-mini

FAR 61.1:

XC = Flight which involves landing at a point other than the departure airport.

XC for PPL/IR/CPL aeronautical experience = Flight which involves landing at a point other than the departure airport which is > 50NM straight-line from the point of departure.

XC for ATP aeronautical experience = Flight which is > 50NM straight-line from the point of departure (no landing required, this provision exists because military pilots usually RTB after a mission without landing anywhere else).

So...

- To log generic XC time, you need to land somewhere else.

- To use that time for PPL/IR/CPL you need to land > 50NM away.

- You can also log XC for the ATP rating without a landing if you fly >50NM from base. I would almost think you should log this separately from generic XC time since it can't be used for things like 135 requirements.

I think but am not 100% certain that the generic definition applies to 135 requirements also. Anyone?

getting even pickier...

XC time is defined as:

(C) that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and


There is an "except as provided" blah blah blah...

followed by: ... for the purposes of meeting aeronautical experience for... ppl, com, inst...

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least 50 nm from the original point of departure; and


Now for my picky part... you don't actually have to land someplace other than your point of departure; you just need to go to a point of landing, ie and airport (not just some landmark), if you are logging it as XC time towards the ppl, com, or inst.





(my interpretation, (and some others))

Not sure where you are getting that, but I can 100% guarantee that the FAA will expect a LANDING, not just a flyover. And they will win the appeal too, the wording as it stands is clear enough as to the intent I think.

FARs are admin law, not criminal or civil law where the wording is critical and appeals can be won on such grounds. In admin law, the FAA can hold you to their intent unless there is a clear contradiction of that. The NTSB almost always weighs in favor of the FAA on these sorts of appeals.

It is a legit grey area as to whether a touch-and-go counts as a landing. I think it does, since the they spell out the need for a full stop elsewhere in the regs when they require one (night currency). But just to be safe I always did a full stop or stop-n-go for training XCs.

Thanks for that breakdown Rickair777.
I know that is has been discussed to death in other threads, but this is a good concise wrap-up.
This is something that many military pilots (at least that I talked too) didn't understand until preparing their ATP forms. In my case, I was eventually led to believe that it DID require the landing at an airport greater than 50 nm away, so I went back through my logbooks and calculated those flight and then started logging in such a way too. As you said, MANY of my flights takeoff and return from the same field so I started to get a little worried about that 500 x/c requirement. At a later time I found out the correct method (as you state above) is the distance greater than 50 nm and almost all of my flights meet that requirement.

jcaplins - your interpretation might be correct, and I'm no judge on how to try and read into the FARs, but even reading your definition would not make me comfortable. I take on it, the whole "point of landing" part, is that my wheels need to touch the ground and when I come back to fill out the paperwork, I can log X number of 'landings'.

For you military guys who are getting ready for the ATP - take note. Understanding this makes it much easier to fill out the required forms.

USMCFLYR

Your interpretation for touch and go's seems to based on the FAA using different wording...
... they worded it 2 different ways for XC time. So, I respectfully disagree with your 100% guarantee. Other wise they would have specifically stated "... that includes a landing..."

I think it was just sloppy wording on the part of the FAA, their intent is clear and fair or not, they will hang you on their intent (and the NTSB will back them up).

If you are working on your ratings, better not follow this guy's advice...a DPE or fed would not see the humor in it.

I won't argue with the "better to be safe than sorry" ideas, I completely agree. Just doing a little hanger flying is all. getting into the nitty gritty, if you will.

Now, My interpretation of a XC flight is to go from one place to another. hence the requirement to land, regardless of distance from starting point. (it's kinda manditory that one take-off requires at least one landing)

For training for the PPL, Comm, or Inst, the point is not to go somewhere and log landings. The point is to be able to navigate to another airport, (a point of landing) not some randomly chosen city or road intersection.




But, in any case, I conceed. As usual, nobody should ever take my advice on anything. Ever.

Airline apps
 

So as far as listing cross country time in airline apps what are you using all x/c or the greater than 50 nm x/c time ?

I agree with the landing part as previously mentioned, but a x/c in my mind does require some distance to be involved. I was recently flying out of NAS Jacksonville. When taking off to the west, you can immediately see the former NAS Cecil Field. In my mind - I could not call it a CROSS COUNTRY if I took off from KNIP and flew 10 miles to KVQQ and did a landing. As far as filling out apps, I guess it can be tricky, but at least the rules and regulations can be used as a guide for determining the proper criteria. I started a column in my logbook when I started down the road for the ATP. I ended up using a method more restrictive for logging my time. Now that I don't have to worry about that anymore - I still keep the column going, but I use my own criteria for logging x/c time which is a distance greater than 50 nm AND a landing.

USMCFLYR

KAT3,

Based on your post, I would recommend jumping into a ME airplane and building time. The 135 time will serve you well in addition to building ME time. I’m not sure what the limitations are of your 135 job, but if possible, try and accomplish both at the same time (keep your 135 job and accumulate ME time). Best of luck.

jc23

I use the definition of cross country time when calculating my cross country time for an app or on a resume. Unless they say other wise, that is what I do.

As for taking off from Jax NAS and landing at Cecil and calling it cross country time...

Since you managed turn towards the west and not toward the ocean, and since you managed to land a Cecil and not the weird airport to the north of it or even JAX int'l, you must have used some form of pilotage to arrive at Cecil Field and therefore, you conducted a cross country as per the All-Knowing FAA's definition of cross country.

I wasn't advocating my way of logging x/c time over any other way - especially trying to decifer FAA regs - and if mine is more restrivtive than the *actual* definition then I'm operating on the safe side.

When you mention the 'weird' airport to the north - are you talking about OLF Whitehouse? Now finding Whitehouse at night - even from the former NAS Cecil - with the lights down low would qualify as using pilotage (and that was with a INS :D) and x/c time!

USMCFLYR

LOL I am not sure the name of the airport. It's been awhile since I have been down that way. LOL I just remember that one airport to the north of Cecil being odd, that's all. I actually flew out of Cecil for a week during a NIFA flight competition back in 2005, that's the last time I was there. :)

From what I've been told the reg was written particularly with military pilots in mind. It was because of the military, including the Coast Guard's, unique missions that are the reason for this and I believe gets abused by many a civilian pilot. No one can tell me that a B-2 flying all the way to the Middle East and lands back at its original point of takeoff in the US does not count as a x-country. But a civilian pilot flying a 172 .9 to overfly an airport 50 nm away is definitely an abuse of the rule. As a survey pilot, I never logged a flight as x-country unless I landed and I've flown over 150 miles to a survey site.

The whole point of the x-country time in the first place is to prove you can navigate an airplane from point A to point B and honestly, going 50 nm is kind of a joke (You can see your destination and your point of takeoff at the same time if you're at 10,000' anywhere that's not mountainous). I think the FAA realizes that cfi's would never get x-country time though if they made the requirement farther. Just do a touch and go and don't abuse the rule that was intended for something else or don't be surprised if you get called on the carpet for it.

Yeah, maybe the rule should be you either land OR drop ordinance on a point >50NM from departure field :D

For the purposes of ATP Cross Country (fly 50NM out, turn around and come back with 1 landing back at your departure airport)...

Departure/Destination airport (Class D) WX:
-BKN 800, 1 and 1/2 SM vis in Heavy Rain
-Special VFR to Depart the Delta
Enroute (Class E upwards from 1,200ft AGL)
-OVC 900ft 1 1/2 SM Vis
-Every 5-10 miles or so you have a town (congested area) which you must circumvent and then get back on course in order to remain legally above your min altitude (500 ft AGL) while remaining Clear of Clouds
Overfly Point 51 NM away from you departure airport
-Point Falls within an area where Class E extends down to 700ft AGL
-You must descent to 600ft AGL to remain legal (clear of clouds in the Class G).

Turn around and fly home the same way.

I won't dispute the fact that some pilots do take advantage of this rule derived for military pilots and I agree 100% that a cross country is meant to demonstrate that you can navigate however, don't think for one second that a 51 NM round robin (for that matter, a 20 mile round robin in these conditions) isn't enough to prove that you can navigate from point A to point B.

Lastly, if you think this is unrealistic, don't fly cargo in the Pacific NW.

Isn't better to log all point to point as cross country and when you are going to do the IACRA 8710 subtract the X-country less than 50nm??? And that's your cross-country for the purpose of flight training?

That's what I did when I was still a student and until I had the 500 XC hrs for ATP, I kept two separate columns in my logbook to note the difference, one for point to point and the other for >50NM. That way, I could track my XC time for Part 135 Mins and still track the XC required for ATP. Now that I have reached 500hrs XC for the purposes of ATP (and I have all my other pilot licenses) I just track point to point. When asked on my ATP 8710 to list my cross country time, I will simply put 500hrs and show the examiner the last page of my >50NM XC column where is says 500hrs and be done with it! Claiming more time that the min requirements is an added bonus where if you lost your logbook, you could retrieve more of your lost time via the 8710, you do not HAVE to put you most up to date times as long as you still meet the min requirements.

I only logged greater than 50 n.m. cross country time, but about half of my time was cross country when I got to 1500. I was very intentional in making sure I had plenty of cross country time once I got there!

In my case I have about 690 X-country time (from point to point) but I'm sure that at least 575 X-country are more than 50nm...so not big. Just like everything else...keep a good situational awareness with your logbook.