KAT3

Hi all,
I am currently working with a 135 VFR carrier flying a Cherokee 6. Unfortunately, none of our routes are over 50NM, and their is no ability for upgrade as we do not own any other equipment.

My dilemma is I anticipate joining a 121 regional in the states as soon as possible . I currently have 1000 hours, but only 50 of which are multi-engine. But, since I was lucky and hired with fairly low time, I have logged 300 hours 135 PIC, 250 of those are at night. Would it be worth more to hiring departments to continue to accumulate 135 PIC time, or head back to instructing to attempt to find multi and X-C time.

Any advice is appreciated,

rickair7777

I don't recall any regionals being too particular about XC time, I suspect they all just want 100 hours or so, if they even specify an amount (check their web sites to be sure).

135 time is good, but only up to a point in ASEL. It wold make you more competitive than a 1000 hour ASEL CFI, but ME time is and always has been the holy grail for regional employment when jobs are hard to find.

Especially with congress making requirements to "emphasize" ME experience in airline hiring, I would be looking into MEI or another 135 job. When you hit 1200 with 135 experience you should be competitive for 135 operations with larger airplanes.

Of course apply to regionals in the meantime, but any non-bottom-feeder regional is going to require 100 ME, and 300-500 will probably be the competitive numbers.

I got my first airline job under similar circumstances, and several hundred ME hours is what made the phone ring.

Corndawg88

Hey man, I am NOT positive, that this is true.... But I was speaking with a DPE the other week, and we got to talking about logging cross country time... He said after the Commercial, any flight that you land at another airport is technically crossed country time. I really can't find any FAR denying it... I'd double check that, you might have a lot of crossed country time under your belt...

esa17

Very incorrect. When pursuing a certificate or rating to be considered XC time it must be greater than 50nm. For the purposes of all other flying to be considered XC all you need to do is take off frome one airport and land at another even if it's a mile away. All my 135 time is XC and since I have my ATP I don't even bother logging greater than 50 anymore.

Corndawg88

Yeah but whats the FAR saying that? I'm not arguing for or against, it I'm saying I can't find one...

minitour

Look at the definition of "Cross Country" in 1.1. Basically two different airports using some sort of navigation.

Then go to part 61 and read the requirements for any certificate or rating where a cross country flight is specified. It specifies a minimum distance. Most are over 50nm. Some are 250, 300, etc...but most are over 50.

It isn't that a cross country flight (by definition) is over 50nm. It's that the certificate or rating requires the specified cross country flight to be a minimum of ___ miles. For the ATP it's something like 500 hours of cross country flight of either "at least" or "more than" 50nm (I can't remember how that's worded exactly...been a while).

-mini

rickair7777

FAR 61.1:

XC = Flight which involves landing at a point other than the departure airport.

XC for PPL/IR/CPL aeronautical experience = Flight which involves landing at a point other than the departure airport which is > 50NM straight-line from the point of departure.

XC for ATP aeronautical experience = Flight which is > 50NM straight-line from the point of departure (no landing required, this provision exists because military pilots usually RTB after a mission without landing anywhere else).

So...

- To log generic XC time, you need to land somewhere else.

- To use that time for PPL/IR/CPL you need to land > 50NM away.

- You can also log XC for the ATP rating without a landing if you fly >50NM from base. I would almost think you should log this separately from generic XC time since it can't be used for things like 135 requirements.

I think but am not 100% certain that the generic definition applies to 135 requirements also. Anyone?

jcaplins

getting even pickier...

XC time is defined as:

(C) that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and


There is an "except as provided" blah blah blah...

followed by: ... for the purposes of meeting aeronautical experience for... ppl, com, inst...

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least 50 nm from the original point of departure; and


Now for my picky part... you don't actually have to land someplace other than your point of departure; you just need to go to a point of landing, ie and airport (not just some landmark), if you are logging it as XC time towards the ppl, com, or inst.





(my interpretation, (and some others))

rickair7777

Not sure where you are getting that, but I can 100% guarantee that the FAA will expect a LANDING, not just a flyover. And they will win the appeal too, the wording as it stands is clear enough as to the intent I think.

FARs are admin law, not criminal or civil law where the wording is critical and appeals can be won on such grounds. In admin law, the FAA can hold you to their intent unless there is a clear contradiction of that. The NTSB almost always weighs in favor of the FAA on these sorts of appeals.

It is a legit grey area as to whether a touch-and-go counts as a landing. I think it does, since the they spell out the need for a full stop elsewhere in the regs when they require one (night currency). But just to be safe I always did a full stop or stop-n-go for training XCs.

USMCFLYR

Thanks for that breakdown Rickair777.
I know that is has been discussed to death in other threads, but this is a good concise wrap-up.
This is something that many military pilots (at least that I talked too) didn't understand until preparing their ATP forms. In my case, I was eventually led to believe that it DID require the landing at an airport greater than 50 nm away, so I went back through my logbooks and calculated those flight and then started logging in such a way too. As you said, MANY of my flights takeoff and return from the same field so I started to get a little worried about that 500 x/c requirement. At a later time I found out the correct method (as you state above) is the distance greater than 50 nm and almost all of my flights meet that requirement.

jcaplins - your interpretation might be correct, and I'm no judge on how to try and read into the FARs, but even reading your definition would not make me comfortable. I take on it, the whole "point of landing" part, is that my wheels need to touch the ground and when I come back to fill out the paperwork, I can log X number of 'landings'.

For you military guys who are getting ready for the ATP - take note. Understanding this makes it much easier to fill out the required forms.

USMCFLYR