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Old 01-02-2010, 09:31 PM   #1  
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Default Bad Flight Time?

Are there categories of flight time that's looked down upon by HR or anyone else in the hiring process? Anything that might get someone semi-blacklisted?

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Old 01-03-2010, 03:26 AM   #2  
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I don't think h.r. cares much other than it being legal and can be explained through FAR's. The airline ASA doesn't really like pilots to have banner tow hours.
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Old 01-03-2010, 05:14 AM   #3  
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Not being a recruiter from what I know around the industry.

Banner towing
Traffic watch
pipeline patrol
aerial mapping

Those four are not highly regarded but are also certainly not discounted. All things considered equal you are likely to lose a spot to someone who was a CFI or flew part 135 single pilot if all you have are the above times.

As for being blacklisted..as a timebuilder that is difficult.

Crossing a picket line is not likely to happen while you are building time.
If you are a aviation harlot and fly for free in a position that is normally paid that is highly looked down upon. With the last scenario it would not blacklist you though because all they would see is SIC time in say a citation or king air 350. They would not know that you flew as a required crew member for free when that position should have been filled by a paid professional.

As I said, this is only what I know from a few conversations with our recruiters.
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:16 AM   #4  
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Flying narcotics or crossing a picket line would get you blacklisted.

At some airlines where pilots have a role in the interview process, pay-for-a-job programs (like GIA) may cause an interviewer/hiring board member to give you a thumbs down.

Other than that, different types of flight time only matter in that some make you more competitive than others...it's much better to have lower-quality time than no time at all!
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Old 01-03-2010, 03:52 PM   #5  
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I have seen some places offering 'mile high membership' type of charter services. Imagine a pilot going to the interview with alot of this type of flying. I mean, you might have decent instrument time but your t/o and arrival airport will always be the same. Stupid rant over.
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:18 PM   #6  
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What hasn't been addressed is pay for right seat time. This comes in two flavors. One, distinctly, and without question, is Gulfstream style pay for a job time. One should never pay for a job in this biz. Doing the Gulfstream program is bad for the profession and bad for the career. There is some well deserved prejudice towards Gulfstreamers out there in the biz. I've seen it mentioned for years on the net. Sadly, I think, some who have PFJed at Gulfstream found it to be a career enhancing move. YMMV. Keylime may fall under this category.

The other flavor of paid right seat time is the EagleJet/Ameriflight. This is where a loop hole in the FAR's is manipulated to allow for a copilot in what would otherwise be a single pilot operation. The copilot can be bumped for freight, so one has to wonder just how important such F/O time can be. It's logable time as it's legal per FAR's. You aren't paying to log time in a seat that would otherwise need to be filled. However, some will see this as useless time, thought it was legal per the FAR's. Keylime may fall under this category.

ATP flight school has a program where two guys log PIC time in a twin. It's another loop hole in the FAR's but a perfectly legal way to build multi time.

If the OP has would like to be more specific, there are folks here that could get more into detail on the question.
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:23 PM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC ALL View Post
What hasn't been addressed is pay for right seat time. This comes in two flavors. One, distinctly, and without question, is Gulfstream style pay for a job time. One should never pay for a job in this biz. Doing the Gulfstream program is bad for the profession and bad for the career. There is some well deserved prejudice towards Gulfstreamers out there in the biz. I've seen it mentioned for years on the net. Sadly, I think, some who have PFJed at Gulfstream found it to be a career enhancing move. YMMV. Keylime may fall under this category.

The other flavor of paid right seat time is the EagleJet/Ameriflight. This is where a loop hole in the FAR's is manipulated to allow for a copilot in what would otherwise be a single pilot operation. The copilot can be bumped for freight, so one has to wonder just how important such F/O time can be. It's logable time as it's legal per FAR's. You aren't paying to log time in a seat that would otherwise need to be filled. However, some will see this as useless time, thought it was legal per the FAR's. Keylime may fall under this category.

ATP flight school has a program where two guys log PIC time in a twin. It's another loop hole in the FAR's but a perfectly legal way to build multi time.

If the OP has would like to be more specific, there are folks here that could get more into detail on the question.
That depends on the WX. We may need them for reduced T/O mins. Other than that.......CYA!
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:45 PM   #8  
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Do you have the right to say "CYA" if you'd rather not deal with an Eaglejet guy?
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:01 PM   #9  
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Quote:
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Do you have the right to say "CYA" if you'd rather not deal with an Eaglejet guy?
We have had pilots do it. Most people will deal with it for the extra pay. We have some people from eagle jet that are great, but its not very common.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:35 AM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt View Post
Not being a recruiter from what I know around the industry.

Banner towing
Traffic watch
pipeline patrol
aerial mapping

Those four are not highly regarded but are also certainly not discounted. All things considered equal you are likely to lose a spot to someone who was a CFI or flew part 135 single pilot if all you have are the above times.
Perhaps not as highly regarded, or valued, as flying 135 but certainly the flight time is worthwhile. You have a specified "mission" to accomplish - it is much more valuable than the recreational pilot hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt View Post
As for being blacklisted..as a timebuilder that is difficult.

Crossing a picket line is not likely to happen while you are building time.
If you are a aviation harlot and fly for free in a position that is normally paid that is highly looked down upon. With the last scenario it would not blacklist you though because all they would see is SIC time in say a citation or king air 350. They would not know that you flew as a required crew member for free when that position should have been filled by a paid professional.

As I said, this is only what I know from a few conversations with our recruiters.
Keep in mind that when you log time there is an expectation that you know something about that aircraft. So it's open-season on questions... this is how we filter those who actually "flew" and those who "fill a requirement."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Flying narcotics or crossing a picket line would get you blacklisted.
And probably on all sorts of watch-lists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
At some airlines where pilots have a role in the interview process, pay-for-a-job programs (like GIA) may cause an interviewer/hiring board member to give you a thumbs down.

Other than that, different types of flight time only matter in that some make you more competitive than others...it's much better to have lower-quality time than no time at all!
This is SO true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaviator View Post
I don't think h.r. cares much other than it being legal and can be explained through FAR's. The airline ASA doesn't really like pilots to have banner tow hours.
Actually, they care very much about quality and the knowledge base of the candidate. PLUS, it has to be legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC ALL View Post
What hasn't been addressed is pay for right seat time. This comes in two flavors. One, distinctly, and without question, is Gulfstream style pay for a job time. One should never pay for a job in this biz. Doing the Gulfstream program is bad for the profession and bad for the career. There is some well deserved prejudice towards Gulfstreamers out there in the biz. I've seen it mentioned for years on the net. Sadly, I think, some who have PFJed at Gulfstream found it to be a career enhancing move. YMMV. Keylime may fall under this category.

The other flavor of paid right seat time is the EagleJet/Ameriflight. This is where a loop hole in the FAR's is manipulated to allow for a copilot in what would otherwise be a single pilot operation. The copilot can be bumped for freight, so one has to wonder just how important such F/O time can be. It's logable time as it's legal per FAR's. You aren't paying to log time in a seat that would otherwise need to be filled. However, some will see this as useless time, thought it was legal per the FAR's. Keylime may fall under this category.

ATP flight school has a program where two guys log PIC time in a twin. It's another loop hole in the FAR's but a perfectly legal way to build multi time.

If the OP has would like to be more specific, there are folks here that could get more into detail on the question.
There are many "loopholes" in the regs regarding logging of flight time. This is certainly nothing new and frankly not enough time is logged through these loopholes to worry about.


When you're building hours it's difficult to land that perfect job. I have seen the spectrum of jobs and methods for building time - some are just better than others. Why? Not because it's valuable to the interviewer, or HR, but because it builds the skills you need to move forward, the experience requisite to landing the next job.

As far as the list above "Banner Towing, Traffic watch, etc." these are legitimate jobs, building legitimate time. Are they the best source for time? The answer to that depends on what company you're interviewing with. But bottom line, it is time...flight time in the cockpit, which is extremely valuable. Rickair mentioned that some flight time makes you more competitive, he's right. Why? Because the company who is entertaining the idea of hiring you will be looking for experience that resembles their operation. Experience which will enable you to more likely pass their training. Experience which provides you with real situations that require you to utilize what you've been taught. Experience which provides you with new experiences and how to handle them....in an airplane. Which is why any of the four jobs listed above will always be more valued than renting an airplane and flying around the patch a few times.

Blacklisting doesn't really exist, per se. Everyone has an opinion and they will most certainly share that opinion with others. Interviewers are not immune and will certainly apply their opinion as to what they consider as valuable flight time when evaluating a candidate. Most however will spend the time talking with the candidate to determine the knowledge level of the candidate and decipher what flight experience he/she possesses.

The pink elephant in the room.... historically speaking, pay for training has had its ups and downs (no pun intended.) If we go far back in the past there was a time when several major airlines were technically pay-for-training. Continental, for example. In fact, many airlines actually practiced ab-initio hiring, a phenomenon we don't experience today. (Perhaps we will again in the future?) Somewhere along the line companies got greedy and took advantage of a cash-cow situation with the pay-for-training and would put any 'ol schmo in the right seat, regardless if they were a good pilot-candidate or not. The only function they performed was to fill the regulatory requirement. They weren't allowed to touch anything, let alone fly. They would log the time, come out of the program and interview for a job elsewhere. It became apparent that they had no real skills or experience from that situation and thus the program developed a negative label. From the fellow-pilot perspective, pay-for-training is taking away a job. Meaning, you are actually paying a company to work for them while your job function allows them to earn revenue. Pretty bass-ackwards. In recent history, pay-for-training has improved in that the person in the right seat is allowed to fly and gain experience. But it doesn't change the stigma, nor does it change the OPINION of others. My advice...it's probably best to stay away from any type of program where you pay to sit in the right seat while the company earns revenue from you being there.
You never know who is going to sit across from you at the interview table and what their opinion might be.


Hope this helps!
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