135 SEL vs Multi Time
08-21-2010, 09:49 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Not sure where you are getting that, but I can 100% guarantee that the FAA will expect a LANDING, not just a flyover. And they will win the appeal too, the wording as it stands is clear enough as to the intent I think.
FARs are admin law, not criminal or civil law where the wording is critical and appeals can be won on such grounds. In admin law, the FAA can hold you to their intent unless there is a clear contradiction of that. The NTSB almost always weighs in favor of the FAA on these sorts of appeals.
It is a legit grey area as to whether a touch-and-go counts as a landing. I think it does, since the they spell out the need for a full stop elsewhere in the regs when they require one (night currency). But just to be safe I always did a full stop or stop-n-go for training XCs.
FARs are admin law, not criminal or civil law where the wording is critical and appeals can be won on such grounds. In admin law, the FAA can hold you to their intent unless there is a clear contradiction of that. The NTSB almost always weighs in favor of the FAA on these sorts of appeals.
It is a legit grey area as to whether a touch-and-go counts as a landing. I think it does, since the they spell out the need for a full stop elsewhere in the regs when they require one (night currency). But just to be safe I always did a full stop or stop-n-go for training XCs.
Your interpretation for touch and go's seems to based on the FAA using different wording...
... they worded it 2 different ways for XC time. So, I respectfully disagree with your 100% guarantee. Other wise they would have specifically stated "... that includes a landing..."
08-21-2010, 09:55 AM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by jcaplins
Your interpretation for touch and go's seems to based on the FAA using different wording...
... they worded it 2 different ways for XC time. So, I respectfully disagree with your 100% guarantee. Other wise they would have specifically stated "... that includes a landing..."
... they worded it 2 different ways for XC time. So, I respectfully disagree with your 100% guarantee. Other wise they would have specifically stated "... that includes a landing..."
If you are working on your ratings, better not follow this guy's advice...a DPE or fed would not see the humor in it.
08-21-2010, 10:05 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 96
I won't argue with the "better to be safe than sorry" ideas, I completely agree. Just doing a little hanger flying is all. getting into the nitty gritty, if you will.
jcaplins - your interpretation might be correct, and I'm no judge on how to try and read into the FARs, but even reading your definition would not make me comfortable. I take on it, the whole "point of landing" part, is that my wheels need to touch the ground and when I come back to fill out the paperwork, I can log X number of 'landings'.
USMCFLYR
Now, My interpretation of a XC flight is to go from one place to another. hence the requirement to land, regardless of distance from starting point. (it's kinda manditory that one take-off requires at least one landing)
For training for the PPL, Comm, or Inst, the point is not to go somewhere and log landings. The point is to be able to navigate to another airport, (a point of landing) not some randomly chosen city or road intersection.
But, in any case, I conceed. As usual, nobody should ever take my advice on anything. Ever.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
jcaplins - your interpretation might be correct, and I'm no judge on how to try and read into the FARs, but even reading your definition would not make me comfortable. I take on it, the whole "point of landing" part, is that my wheels need to touch the ground and when I come back to fill out the paperwork, I can log X number of 'landings'.
USMCFLYR
For training for the PPL, Comm, or Inst, the point is not to go somewhere and log landings. The point is to be able to navigate to another airport, (a point of landing) not some randomly chosen city or road intersection.
But, in any case, I conceed. As usual, nobody should ever take my advice on anything. Ever.
Last edited by jcaplins; 08-21-2010 at 10:32 AM.
08-25-2010, 08:12 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by jcaplins
I won't argue with the "better to be safe than sorry" ideas, I completely agree. Just doing a little hanger flying is all. getting into the nitty gritty, if you will.
Now, My interpretation of a XC flight is to go from one place to another. hence the requirement to land, regardless of distance from starting point. (it's kinda manditory that one take-off requires at least one landing)
For training for the PPL, Comm, or Inst, the point is not to go somewhere and log landings. The point is to be able to navigate to another airport, (a point of landing) not some randomly chosen city or road intersection.
But, in any case, I conceed. As usual, nobody should ever take my advice on anything. Ever.
Now, My interpretation of a XC flight is to go from one place to another. hence the requirement to land, regardless of distance from starting point. (it's kinda manditory that one take-off requires at least one landing)
For training for the PPL, Comm, or Inst, the point is not to go somewhere and log landings. The point is to be able to navigate to another airport, (a point of landing) not some randomly chosen city or road intersection.
But, in any case, I conceed. As usual, nobody should ever take my advice on anything. Ever.
USMCFLYR
08-25-2010, 10:59 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by KAT3
Hi all,
I am currently working with a 135 VFR carrier flying a Cherokee 6. Unfortunately, none of our routes are over 50NM, and their is no ability for upgrade as we do not own any other equipment.
My dilemma is I anticipate joining a 121 regional in the states as soon as possible . I currently have 1000 hours, but only 50 of which are multi-engine. But, since I was lucky and hired with fairly low time, I have logged 300 hours 135 PIC, 250 of those are at night. Would it be worth more to hiring departments to continue to accumulate 135 PIC time, or head back to instructing to attempt to find multi and X-C time.
Any advice is appreciated,
I am currently working with a 135 VFR carrier flying a Cherokee 6. Unfortunately, none of our routes are over 50NM, and their is no ability for upgrade as we do not own any other equipment.
My dilemma is I anticipate joining a 121 regional in the states as soon as possible . I currently have 1000 hours, but only 50 of which are multi-engine. But, since I was lucky and hired with fairly low time, I have logged 300 hours 135 PIC, 250 of those are at night. Would it be worth more to hiring departments to continue to accumulate 135 PIC time, or head back to instructing to attempt to find multi and X-C time.
Any advice is appreciated,
Based on your post, I would recommend jumping into a ME airplane and building time. The 135 time will serve you well in addition to building ME time. I’m not sure what the limitations are of your 135 job, but if possible, try and accomplish both at the same time (keep your 135 job and accumulate ME time). Best of luck.
jc23
08-28-2010, 07:28 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: PT Inbound
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by featheredprop
So as far as listing cross country time in airline apps what are you using all x/c or the greater than 50 nm x/c time ?
As for taking off from Jax NAS and landing at Cecil and calling it cross country time...
Since you managed turn towards the west and not toward the ocean, and since you managed to land a Cecil and not the weird airport to the north of it or even JAX int'l, you must have used some form of pilotage to arrive at Cecil Field and therefore, you conducted a cross country as per the All-Knowing FAA's definition of cross country.
08-28-2010, 08:42 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by Fly Boy Knight
I use the definition of cross country time when calculating my cross country time for an app or on a resume. Unless they say other wise, that is what I do.
As for taking off from Jax NAS and landing at Cecil and calling it cross country time...
Since you managed turn towards the west and not toward the ocean, and since you managed to land a Cecil and not the weird airport to the north of it or even JAX int'l, you must have used some form of pilotage to arrive at Cecil Field and therefore, you conducted a cross country as per the All-Knowing FAA's definition of cross country.
As for taking off from Jax NAS and landing at Cecil and calling it cross country time...
Since you managed turn towards the west and not toward the ocean, and since you managed to land a Cecil and not the weird airport to the north of it or even JAX int'l, you must have used some form of pilotage to arrive at Cecil Field and therefore, you conducted a cross country as per the All-Knowing FAA's definition of cross country.
When you mention the 'weird' airport to the north - are you talking about OLF Whitehouse? Now finding Whitehouse at night - even from the former NAS Cecil - with the lights down low would qualify as using pilotage (and that was with a INS
) and x/c time!USMCFLYR
08-28-2010, 04:46 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: PT Inbound
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
When you mention the 'weird' airport to the north - are you talking about OLF Whitehouse?
09-01-2010, 07:24 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 511
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
This is something that many military pilots (at least that I talked too) didn't understand until preparing their ATP forms. In my case, I was eventually led to believe that it DID require the landing at an airport greater than 50 nm away, so I went back through my logbooks and calculated those flight and then started logging in such a way too. As you said, MANY of my flights takeoff and return from the same field so I started to get a little worried about that 500 x/c requirement. At a later time I found out the correct method (as you state above) is the distance greater than 50 nm and almost all of my flights meet that requirement.
The whole point of the x-country time in the first place is to prove you can navigate an airplane from point A to point B and honestly, going 50 nm is kind of a joke (You can see your destination and your point of takeoff at the same time if you're at 10,000' anywhere that's not mountainous). I think the FAA realizes that cfi's would never get x-country time though if they made the requirement farther. Just do a touch and go and don't abuse the rule that was intended for something else or don't be surprised if you get called on the carpet for it.
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