Fastest path to legacy: LCC or Regional CA?
 

I'm sure we will get many facets of opinion, but I would like to get some input. I have an offer from a LCC and able to upgrade at my regional now. What would you choose and why? Thanks!

Unless your regional is in dire straits and you think you could downgrade soon and unless you have a ton of T-PIC already, I'd stay the course and upgrade. Get your command experience and wait for the call. If after you get your 1000 T-PIC then I'd consider the move to an LCC.

Captain. Get some experience under your belt.

TPIC counts for way more than 320/737 SIC time.

Thread closed after three bullseye posts.

Get at least 1000 PIC then consider the LCC.

If you have a job offer from a LCC and aren't at a Wholly Owned regional you're probably safer by going to the LCC.

Take the LCC! You'll probably be on reserve as a junior CA at the regional so it'll take quite a while to get the 1000 tpic. An LCC is at least a career destination should the economy go south. Don't get comfortable at a regional while waiting for the bigger better deal. GTFO at the first opportunity. Just my humble opinion.

When I first upgraded a couple of years ago, I was on the fence with the exact same question. So I asked the head of Delta hiring a variation of the exact same question. I asked him if it would be better to go to some JetBlue or Spirit and get the A320 Type since they're prevalent at Delta and the fact it would show aptitude for training. He didn't hesitate in his response. It was his opinion that making command decisions was far greater experience than playing second fiddle in the right seat. So in the opinion of hiring department leads for legacies, there's your answer.

OTOH, with Delta and United hiring many of my friends six months into JetBlue as well as 23 year old wunderkins, experience doesn't always have the standing that's advertised. That being said, I don't regret staying for the 1000. Now that I have it, I've put apps in at SWA and UPS. I feel like I can diversify my options and I know I'll have that milestone the rest of my career. It's a tough call and there's no way to know if you made the right decision. Just gotta be comfortable setting up shop wherever you gotta be for a couple years. It's hard to beat my current setup, so that was a factor in decision making. Good luck in your decision. It's good to have options.

The original question is the fastest path to a legacy. If your regional has a flow through then you should stay and upgrade.

There is really no forward looking in this industry beyond a year. It's a crap shoot.

The fastest way would be to stay and get the TPIC. With that being said, there are plenty 10-20 year regional guys who have been waiting ages for the golden call. You could be turning down six or even seven figures worth of opportunity cost wages by turning down the LCC depending on how long it takes to get the legacy call.

Completely agree with this. Don't pass up a ticket out of the regionals because you don't know when your next opportunity will be. Like Rahlifer said, if the economy goes to crap again, you don't want to be stuck in a bad spot. Go to the LCC and keep trying for a legacy there if that's your ultimate goal.

There are also plenty of people being hired without TPIC at legacies also. It's not as crucial as it once was.

Have apps in everywhere the entire time, get to 1000 tpic asap, and near the end ramp up the networking. Getting somewhere that you can stay long term in case the economy burps should be your #1 priority. You can make a career work at a LCC if you have to. Sticking it out for a decade at a regional dealing with a mickey mouse operation isn't going to improve your resume.

Delta said the same thing to me three years ago. "We want captains..." but what they aren't saying is that getting hired by a LCC, background checked, trained, and gaining experience under a new/different FOM takes a lot of effort and a certain caliber of person. It shows you are trainable, likeable, and proficient at a different level. Regionals hiring standards haven't exactly been selective and AQP has made it possible to have a great resume but be a complete doorknob. I threw a LCC on my apps and had offers from Southwest, Alaska, Delta, and United. LOR's don't go bad for a lot of places so keep racking them up and beating down all doors. Good luck!

LCC FOs will tell you take the LCC job.

Regional captains will tell you to stay as a regional captain. Some of them even still think '1000' hours of PIC is categorically significant. They'll also tell you to go rent a movie from Blockbuster.

Truth is, there is no straight answer. People are getting hired from each category.

Do whatever is best for you and your family and don't look back. Don't make your life miserable at an LCC you would have to commute to, or where you didn't really want to work in the first place.

Personally for me, I would take the LCC as I prefer that kind of flying over regional flying. It's also something new and different, with better career potential if I never make it to a legacy carrier.

You never know IF a major will call, so go/stay where you're willing to (or at least would rather) be for the remainder of your career.

That said, while "1000 turbine PIC" is a great box to check it seems that it's not entirely necessary in most cases. If you really don't have a preference of carrier long term I'd probably say stay and get the Captain time, and if you enjoy teaching maybe try to get some check airman time too.

There are so many other, more important variables that this advice is worth about what you're paying for it. Good luck.

What are upgrade times at most LCCs?

Thanks for the input guys. To be perfectly honest I'm leaning towards LCC. Bus time sounds great, esp with better schedules, more efficient pairings and commutability.

Can those who, or have friends who went to a legacy carrier without pic time please chime in on their journey, education, experience levels. Just curious how long one would hang at an LCC before moving on without pic time assuming they could get hired before upgrading considering upgrade times seem to be in the 3-5 year range at the moment.

Might change when you upgrade at a LCC.

I just started with Allegiant and it's as little as one year. Most guys seem to take it 1.5-2 years.

My advice, unless you have a true flow, get out of the regionals. If **** were to hit the fan, would you want to be at a place with pretty legit QOL and pay (and equipment) compared to regionals; or stick it out flying 4-5 legs a day?

I'm not saying all regionals suck, I had great QOL my last 2 years, but big picture I think it's a no brainer to get to an LCC. You may never get a legacy call. I would rather be an LCC lifer CA than regional lifer.

This is an extremely interesting thread. Sometimes your career throws an opportunity your way that you never planned on when you began your "master plan" and you have to adjust on the fly with limited info. I know my career has been that way.

In a vacuum, I think this is a really tough call. I'm from the old school of "get your turbine PIC ASAP before anything," because that's what I was told, and that's how things worked out for me. BUT...

-->I have flown next to LCC captains that left their regional right before their upgrade, and they're reaping rewards (solid seniority, QOL, and pay at a young age) for their gamble right now.

-->There does APPEAR to be a growing preference for those with diversified experience over those who have worked for one carrier for over a decade, even if such candidates have more PIC time.

To the OP, I think above all, you need to consider what's right for YOU. How will your QOL stack up as a regional captain vs. LCC FO? Pay, basing, what's best for you and perhaps your family?

If you stay, upgrade, and start trucking toward 1000 TPIC, are you willing to start networking HARD for the legacies, ASAP, because you don't want to become a lifer? Keep in mind it often takes a long time (6 months is fast, years is common) to work through the selection process.

If you go to an LCC will you take the first upgrade possible if you're still there, along with whatever QOL hit that may bring? That is where your short upgrade times come from, but they are certainly a QOL sacrifice, depending on the airline. Many wait years because they don't want to do that, which is fine, but are they any less "stuck" than a regional lifer?

Are you "sold" on this LCC, its model, culture, viability, etc? Also, it's a crystal ball, but how viable is your regional? As others said, do you have flow?

Lots more questions than answers here. I hope you make the choice that's right for you , because only you know the answers to these questions. Go for it and never look back.

I was hired at UA without the TPIC. I'll give you a little rundown of my story....

University of North Dakota for flight training, 3.9 GPA, 2 flying internships but none at airlines.... flight instructor...Cape Air... SkyWest. Was at SkyWest for a little over 4 years when UA called. 4300ish hours TT, most of which was TSIC. Worked on some projects with the safety department. Lots of volunteer from college days on, including leadership roles. Numerous job fairs and both internal UA and external recommendations, as well as a chief pilot meet and greet.... Nobody knows the secret formula but this was just my story and I feel extremely blessed for the opportunities I've had. Good luck with your decision.

Sent a PM - would love to get some more insights ....

Legacies want to see career progression. Looks like you have two options for that progression right now. I left my regional after 6 years in the right seat to fly corporate, then flew for a LCC and within months had a offer from a Legacy. They feel more comfortable hiring someone who will go out and chase this career down rather than someone who just punches in everyday waiting for their upgrade to come. QOL and money is hands down better at the LCC I work for, $97/hr second year FO with 17 days off a month based at home. No regional captain can touch that and you will still have your shot (probably a better one actually) at the legacies. Not to mention if you are at the LCC for five years you will probably find yourself in the left seat making $200k per year (if you try) with decent QOL as well. In my mind there is not any reason to stay at the regional, unless you think you have a shot at a management position in the near future.

I completely agree. Stale people aren't getting calls and complaining about it. I hope we get more guys to chime in that made it without the pic time.

Tpic hardly means anything these days! Those who say "get your 1000" are clearly out of touch with what's going on in the industry (I'm referring to the big three). I myself had 0 tpic and got hired along with a few others in my class. Just hit the job fairs and network. Don't waste time at a regional and gtfo while you can!

No 121 PIC time for me to get on with United, only a bit of part 91 TPIC. I was very active with networking, job fairs, leadership opportunities within the company/union, etc. I did however have 10 years of warming an RJ right seat with no opportunity to upgrade during the "dark decade".

No 121 pic time either when i got hired by UAL. And i have heard they prefer no PIC over 10,000 hours PIC guys because of a trend of people not being able to adapt to right seat again. Dont shoot the messenger thats just what i heard last time i was in DEN for training. I did flight training on my own after getting a non aviation degree. Went to a small 121 carrier for 2 years then a regional for 4 years and finally UAL after that. 3 job fairs and 2 chief pilot meet and greets later i got into UAL. PM if you want more specifics :) id go the route of LCC though for better pay better schedules and if you never make it to a regional you have a good career still.

Learned to fly later in life with 4-year degree (not aviation related) already in hand. Spent 3 years as a Part 61 CFI and FO with an air ambulance company flying a King Air C-90. Hired at a regional with about 2800 hours and spent three years there, all in the right seat. Hired at TWA and spent one year there on the B727 panel. Hired at Delta with about 5500 hours TT, 600 hours FE time, and no Part 121 PIC.

And a closet full of uniforms.

The last 3 posters are mentioning 121 PIC time, however the relevant requirement for this discussion is turbine PIC time which is not necessarily 121 PIC time.

Fair enough, for clarity I had no TPIC time

Take the LCC. I don't think there's a "path" to a major. It's all a bunch of luck nowadays and good connections. Like most people said you rather be at an LCC when the music stops. TPIC doesn't seem to be as important as it once was.

I'm about to hit 1000 PIC, and will hit the LCC's a little bit harder now. First year pay at some of the LCC is a little tough, but 2nd year is back to where most junior regional CA's are now.

Plus whose to say today's LCC's won't be tomorrow's "legacies?" When Southwest was a small LCC, how many guys turned their nose only to get furloughed by AA or UA? Look at the guys that did take the gamble and are young senior guys at SW now.

The big difference is SW had (still has?) a culture of respect between the company and its employees and customers. I can't speak for all LCCs but right now at F9 the only thing that matters is the bottom line regardless of the collateral damage. I know morale at the legacies hasn't always been rosy but at the very least they are starting to pay lip service to keeping their employees happy. I don't think that will ever be the case at the ULCC level. The pay will eventually be respectable in comparison to the Big 4 but I don't think we'll ever be treated like professionals.

Bump...

I'm in the same boat. Upgrade or try something else. Company has a flow, but it'll be another 5 or so years. I can hopefully make it to a major before then. And who knows, maybe I'll love a LCC. I'm not convinced TPIC is a golden ticket yet either. Decisions :/

Not all LCCs are created equal. Neither, for that matter are regionals. Going from SkyWest to Frontier involves different math than going from Mesa to Jet Blue.

FOs are getting hired at legacies and there are guys with 10,000 TPIC that can't get the call, but TPIC definitely seems to be an asset. What I see in the [regional] FOs that get hired is a diverse resume. Active in the community and at their airlines. X hours of anything probably won't get you hired alone unless you are well connected. Will switching to the LCC improve or reduce your abilities to be involved with training/recruiting/union/saftey departments? Will the switch give you more or less time to volunteer or otherwise be active in your local neighborhood/school/church?

Can anyone tell me what the heck volunteer activities have to do with getting a job? Not to mention I bet 98% of it is BS on people's resume.
Hey Bill, I know you want that general surgeon position at General Hospital, ya got some volunteer time at the church to show the interviewer?

You're jousting at the windmills bro. The reality is that in a business where your position description is defined as being a carbon copy of your competition for the job, there's nothing in your job performance that can differentiate you, and TT has long been debunked as indicative of improved performance. Even sparse checkride failures is not indicative of much, and even then the market is grade-inflated towards perfect checkride scores, so it becomes useless still.

That's why ballwash discriminators like unrelated formal education or social feel-good extracurriculars are used to rack n stack. Don't like it? You'll have to find employment that allows you to pitch your employability based on discriminators you find relevant to your condition.

But you already knew all this and are probably just venting. I get that. Your surgeon comparison is not useful, they have much more market leverage than an airline pilot, contrary to what the myth of pilot shortage may lead aspirants to believe. It sucks I know, our parents just had to be qualified and have a pulse and they had a career. We're born too late for that. Sink or swim.

If it's any consolation...the last few round trip tickets I bought have been from AA. Most of the time they are actually the cheapest option as I've paid significantly less than I would have on JB or Frontier so I think the LCC model is kind of subjective.

I don't believe 1000 TPIC means anything anymore, I would take the first opportunity and get out of the regionals.