Kalitta vs. Atlas
 

With the new CBA at Atlas, which doesn't appear to have been received well by the majority, how do the two companies, currently, compare. Interested in the comparison between Kalitta and the 747(and perhaps 777) ops at Atlas. Thank you for any input.

Not well received is an understatement.

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Rumor is that Atlas will be purchasing K4 within a few years. So, shouldn’t really matter in the medium-to-long term.

Troll much? There may be many people at Atlas that know the companies plans, hopes and dreams but there are less than 5 people at Kalitta with that knowledge. They have been pretty good at keeping that information to themselves for over 30 years. Just because one side might fantasize about it doesn't make it true. Could it happen? Yeah sure. I might also grow a horn, a tail and start vomiting rainbows and farting glitter as a pretty unicorn, but it's not likely.

We definitely won some improvements, but it took six years! Management destroyed any semblance of a positive work environment here.

The most glaring issue now is the abysmal joke called retirement. Management insured that this place will be a hit and run outfit.

I just flew with a really good, young (30) aviator who is leaving for Delta. We can't afford to lose these sharp guys. He was here just over a year.

About the same with some minor variations, depending on how you value work rules, etc. Retirement and disability are lacking here. Work rules may be a little worse at K4. Like someone else said we could have been in the same position shortly after K4 got their contract. Others can be more specific and correct as necessary. Good luck with whatever move you're thinking about making.

Wrong company it's UPS who are in talks to purchase K4.

Not gunna happen, been hearing that for a long time.

K4 will be the next acquisition as Atlas has the money and ambition to do so. Atlas will have the ACMI segment cornered and potential customers will have nowhere else to go for lift. M&A was mentioned 5 times on the last investor call.

It would be the best for both pilot groups and companies.

I hope not. A lot of us left K4 for UPS.

Well maybe you can hang once again with some old buds within the confines of the one big happy family of Brown. Good Times!
*Or was your reference in terms of line numbers/seniority? Wonder if Brown would staple them under OR re-interview which wouldn’t be unheard of. It’s a crazy world we live in. K4 keeps on keeping on.

Well I heard K4 is buying UPS….and stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list. Overheard at a pizza meeting.

Seniority. Got some friends still there that were junior to me.

Thats pretty messed up. You hope a company you used to work at doesn’t get picked up by a better company just because you may lose a couple seniority spots.

With that said, I just don’t see it happening. Why would UPS want us? They don’t want the OSC MX base or the YIP training center. As for airplanes we have like 6 owned 76s but they just ordered a bunch more so why would they want ours. If they wanted more 74s I’m sure they could of kept the Dash 8 production open with Boeing instead of buying a bunch of old 74s from us. We have one 777 freighter + the orders which would be a new type for them, again doesn’t make much sense. They gain 750ish pilots but why wouldn’t they instead hire at their own pace.

rest easy..pretty sure WhaleWrangler's comment was tounge in cheek

And, UPS did surpass 3,000 finally within the past year or so after decades of hovering below it. They may be below it again but have some growth as everyone has or has tried to during this viral debacle, it’s no secret. To gain well over 500 pilots and old or even new iron would blow their minds. Definitely tongue and cheek, but if not it would be a step up for most any place just basing it on $/retirement predominantly. Whatever outfit anyone is with, route structure/ownership and then assets drive absorption a lot of the times.

Not a secret what Brown can do for you, or do to you - (sarcasm to clarify, but some reality in the statement)

Not the first time over the past couple of months I've heard the rumor though. Who knows what could happen, just doesn't make any sense to me.

What happened last time UPS bought an airline? For you youngsters search UPS Challenge Air Cargo.

Whoever eventually buys k4 will have to deal with our extensive scope provisions concerning such a move...no buying of just assets (like UPS did), crews and cba go with airline, alpa merger policy or no sale....being stapled is a thing of the past anyway with McCaskill-Bond as law

UPS bought the assets and kicked the pilots to the curb. Be careful what you wish for. Business decisions do not involve the hopes & dreams of pilots.

Connie will not sell K4 and if Doug is heir, Doug def will not sell it! So whatever happens better happen on Connies watch. Connie is the last of the mohicans.

re-read what I said there……

Did. I caught your sarcasm the first time. What am I missing? A large percentage of pilots on here have never heard of Challenge Air Cargo and assume being bought by someone like UPS is a path to riches.

True to include our folks and others hoping Amazon will scoop them up. Definitely not a good move as Bezos doesn’t do unions nor take prisoners. Low cost low yield but by mass quantities and low pay. If paid well, you are working your tail off and earning every penny. Fine by some, not by me.

Well I said that Connie was going to buy UPS. It was a joke.

Did Atlas just get a new contract that isn’t published yet? I heard about it this morning in LAX.

Guy was an Atlas pilot, but he seemed vague on the details. I asked him about retirement and he said, “yes, much improved”. He said they have changed training pay for the better but didn’t know the details.

It was early, but the terminal was packed. He seemed excited though.

Corporate has been fun, but man, a schedule and good retirement?

Retirement is now a 100% match up to 10%, and 2% direct contribution. So, If you put in nothing towards your retirement, the company will put in 2%. If you put in 10%, the company puts in 12%
Training pay has been eliminated. New hires now receive minimum guarantee starting on day 1.

In addition, some decent enhancements to the Long Term Disability. Line Guarantee - If you are a line holder and do not adjust your schedule (sick, conflict bidding using training dates, etc) your awarded bid payout of crt/credit hours will be paid regardless of any schedule changes that might occur. Any issues arise on your part then you can expect min guarantee. Keeps your expected pay and your line quite a bit more intact. Not true for everyone, but it has for me and when changes occurred it became more profitable.

“Some decent enhancements”? You’re way off. We didn’t even have LTD before. We had STD with a 1 year buy up to make it 3 years. They called that LTD but there is nothing LONG about 3 years. Calling it “some decent enhancements” is extremely disingenuous.

We haven’t seen the details…but if it’s as described by the union, it’s an industry standard LTD to 65 with 60% salary to $10k/mo limit with buy up available to make it $15k/mo.

It’s a small step forward for the company but a VERY significant item for crews. It’s definitely not enough to stop the hemorrhaging of pilots as we can see by our class sizes this past week…but it’s a start. Will they see that and come back to negotiations? Time will tell.

Agree, my apologies as it’s been off the radar for over a decade for me as a payee for that “extra year” since the beginning. Can you verify any rumors beyond that document we have that the current rates of “buy up” will remain the same? Granted, they have increased incrementally but an astronomic jump just might not be worth it. Thanks for posting that documents data points by the Union. I was in a rush/lazy…

No detailed information with actual numbers has been disseminated to us as of yet. There’s no telling what the cost will be for the buy up. According to the union information, the LTD 60% pay max $10k/mo will be fully paid by the company as the current 2 year plan is…the buy up will only be regarding the $15k/mo max.

We still don’t know how this will be calculated. Will it be based on your min guarantee per month times 60%? Will it be your last years W2 times 60%? Will it be the highest 3 months of the last 12 times 60%? The devil is in the details.

We won’t know how good or bad of a deal it is until we get all the details. I haven’t heard any word as to when that will be.

Thanks, appreciate the candor. We’ll just wait to see how this all plays out. Cheers!

From an objective standpoint which of the two operators is the best job overall?

I worked at K4. It was a good job. Honestly if you’re looking to do some ACMI flying you can’t go wrong with either. Atlas has more variety of flying and has better benefits now with their new contract. K4 has true home basing which is real nice. Apples to apples…I might pick Atlas now if I were joining simply because they’re a larger, publicly traded company. I also don’t think the Atlas crews are getting whipped as hard as the K4 crews right now either.

I wouldn't give much weight to that when considering Atlas - with the Apollo buy out I believe you can't currently buy the stock, and it won't be publicity traded once the purchase goes through.

If Sun Country is any indicator, then it probably will be publicity traded again after a while.

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Speaking as a Kalitta captain with friends at Atlas:

"Objectively," Atlas is the one of the two with a better contract, duty and trip rigs, a higher possible retirement contribution, more varied flying, and more experience employing Aussies (assuming your question elsewhere still applies here). Kalitta also officially does not have true home basing outside the USA. Pilots who live outside the USA are not subject to the same contractual perks and protections as those in-country, and must make arrangements to get to the USA on their own effort during days off. Management has made offhand, non-binding comments that this may change, but objectively they have done nothing contractual.

There are nuances as to why one would choose one over the other, but your question as phrased leaves Atlas the clear choice. Most would recommend you keep your applications updated working at either one though, as both have high attrition for good reason.

Has anything changed over the last year? Is one a clear stand out over the other? I have offes at both for the 74.

As of right now Atlas still has a better contract with regards to duty days and scheduling, but Kalitta did start negotiations early so who knows what they're cooking

Bump.

Any more opinions a quarter of the way through 2024?