New FedEx LOA
06-27-2007, 08:43 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 349
Originally Posted by Sniper
"up to"? Could be less, no?
Is there a minimum "allowance" guarantee in there that I missed?
Is there a minimum "allowance" guarantee in there that I missed?
Past...
06-28-2007, 12:35 AM
#12
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,053
I can not BELIEVE that this was voted in favor of 11-1 by our Union. Between this and DW's stand on the retro age 60 fiasco, I don't wear an ALPA pin or Lanyard anymore.
For MEM, ANC, and LAX guys who don't want to take the time to read the whole thing (and/or who aren't lawyers) before voting, here is a summary:
1--Housing allowance of $2700/mo (LOA B.2.d.i) if you rent. You'll get $1300/mo (LOA B.2.d.ii) if you buy. You have to live within 100 miles (LOA B.2.d.iii) of HKG (assuming HKG is the "base airport") Please remember that a "normal" apartment big enough to house you, your wife, and one kid is roughly 8500++ USD per month in any desirable area of HKG, and that you are RENTING, and not building equity in anything.
2-- Remember the two hour limit on ground transport? That's gone. Get ready for a midnight van ride to Guangzhou for a 3 am show (LOA sect. G).
3-- Want to go back to visit the folks stateside? You'll be able to do just that (along with your family) on an annual basis. . . in coach class. . . after having been in your new base for two years (LOA B.2.f). Perhaps after that amount of time you will have forgotten about Grandma. Out of sight out of mind?
4-- Relocation allowance of $10K or 79 credit hours (contract 6.C.2) is now just $10,000 (LOA B.2.a) and you'll get an additional $5000. . . after 4 YEARS of staying in your new base. (LOA B.2.b)
5-- Minimum commitment is 2 years (LOA B.2). Let's be conservative and assume you are single with no wife and kids, and can live in a very nice van down by the river in HKG for $6000/mo. You're paying $3,300 out of pocket (utilities aside) for rent (which we all know it lost money). . . $3300/mo for min commitment of 24 months equals your cost for living in HKG for two years-- $79,200!! Remember, that's for the van down by the river. . .
6-- We're getting "tax equalization." In other words, you will pay the exact same taxes as if you lived in the USA. Isn't that the whole point of being an ex-pat, to avoid paying US Federal income tax (on the 1st 84K anyway) Take away that benefit, and still expect guys to live in THE most expensive, one of the MOST polluted (complete with air you can see), and crowded cities in the world?? I have never, ever, in the history of any US company basing employees overseas, heard of taking away the tax benefit Is FedEX honing its stand-up routine or what?
I hope FedEX is ready to fill the FO side of HKG with new hires. And I hope FedEX is ready to change its typical hiring practice. I'd love to listen in on the phone call from Kim to the typical, 38 year old, ex-military guy, with a wife and 3 kids... "Hello, congrats, you are hired at FedEX and we're ready to offer you a class date! You'll be going to Hong Kong, the most expensive city for ex-pat housing in the world. You can not afford to bring your wife, and we will not assist you in any way at all in schooling your children, because that only costs around $15,000 per year, EACH. And, we're going to pay you 52 bucks an hour! Welcome aboard!"
FedEX is going to need start hiring guys like the Commuter airlines do. 24 years old, no wife, no kids, little debt, still getting money from mom and dad, still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome, and willing to take ANY offer to get out of their CFI job.
It would be illegal and unethical for me to tell anyone how to vote on this LOA. But please be aware of the facts of living in a city like HKG, and be aware that this will set a precedent that affects far more than 80 guys.
Vote your consciousness.
For MEM, ANC, and LAX guys who don't want to take the time to read the whole thing (and/or who aren't lawyers) before voting, here is a summary:
1--Housing allowance of $2700/mo (LOA B.2.d.i) if you rent. You'll get $1300/mo (LOA B.2.d.ii) if you buy. You have to live within 100 miles (LOA B.2.d.iii) of HKG (assuming HKG is the "base airport") Please remember that a "normal" apartment big enough to house you, your wife, and one kid is roughly 8500++ USD per month in any desirable area of HKG, and that you are RENTING, and not building equity in anything.
2-- Remember the two hour limit on ground transport? That's gone. Get ready for a midnight van ride to Guangzhou for a 3 am show (LOA sect. G).
3-- Want to go back to visit the folks stateside? You'll be able to do just that (along with your family) on an annual basis. . . in coach class. . . after having been in your new base for two years (LOA B.2.f). Perhaps after that amount of time you will have forgotten about Grandma. Out of sight out of mind?
4-- Relocation allowance of $10K or 79 credit hours (contract 6.C.2) is now just $10,000 (LOA B.2.a) and you'll get an additional $5000. . . after 4 YEARS of staying in your new base. (LOA B.2.b)
5-- Minimum commitment is 2 years (LOA B.2). Let's be conservative and assume you are single with no wife and kids, and can live in a very nice van down by the river in HKG for $6000/mo. You're paying $3,300 out of pocket (utilities aside) for rent (which we all know it lost money). . . $3300/mo for min commitment of 24 months equals your cost for living in HKG for two years-- $79,200!! Remember, that's for the van down by the river. . .
6-- We're getting "tax equalization." In other words, you will pay the exact same taxes as if you lived in the USA. Isn't that the whole point of being an ex-pat, to avoid paying US Federal income tax (on the 1st 84K anyway) Take away that benefit, and still expect guys to live in THE most expensive, one of the MOST polluted (complete with air you can see), and crowded cities in the world?? I have never, ever, in the history of any US company basing employees overseas, heard of taking away the tax benefit Is FedEX honing its stand-up routine or what?
I hope FedEX is ready to fill the FO side of HKG with new hires. And I hope FedEX is ready to change its typical hiring practice. I'd love to listen in on the phone call from Kim to the typical, 38 year old, ex-military guy, with a wife and 3 kids... "Hello, congrats, you are hired at FedEX and we're ready to offer you a class date! You'll be going to Hong Kong, the most expensive city for ex-pat housing in the world. You can not afford to bring your wife, and we will not assist you in any way at all in schooling your children, because that only costs around $15,000 per year, EACH. And, we're going to pay you 52 bucks an hour! Welcome aboard!"
FedEX is going to need start hiring guys like the Commuter airlines do. 24 years old, no wife, no kids, little debt, still getting money from mom and dad, still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome, and willing to take ANY offer to get out of their CFI job.
It would be illegal and unethical for me to tell anyone how to vote on this LOA. But please be aware of the facts of living in a city like HKG, and be aware that this will set a precedent that affects far more than 80 guys.
Vote your consciousness.
Last edited by skypine27; 06-28-2007 at 12:46 AM.
06-28-2007, 03:07 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 424
I didn't see any reason for me to vote for this LOA. It doesn't bother me if Fedex sends newhires to CDG ir HGK. It would be a good deal for them at least. It makes it difficult for anyone with children in school to afford either of these locations. This might be viable for single guys. Anyway, I am not backing the union as I might have in the past. I can't support this LOA.....
06-28-2007, 03:28 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: let it snow, let it snow, let it snow
Posts: 829
Originally Posted by skypine27
6-- We're getting "tax equalization." In other words, you will pay the exact same taxes as if you lived in the USA. Isn't that the whole point of being an ex-pat, to avoid paying US Federal income tax (on the 1st 84K anyway) Take away that benefit, and still expect guys to live in THE most expensive, one of the MOST polluted (complete with air you can see), and crowded cities in the world?? I have never, ever, in the history of any US company basing employees overseas, heard of taking away the tax benefit Is FedEX honing its stand-up routine or what?
06-28-2007, 03:43 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I think the tax assistance is based on the fact both Hong Kong and France will tax you on income you gain while living there. The tax assistance is designed to basically have you pay about what you'd pay if you were stateside. I may be mis-reading this--anyone smarter on tax ramifications or the LOA can pipe in here.
As a guy who would not go overseas anyway I have two choices:
Option 1--support my union MEC and vote for this thing. The benefit to me is the bid gets here sooner and perhaps I can upgrade or get more senior in my seat. I show "unity" and support for the guys who worked this out. Realize with our current CBA the company doesn't have to offer anything anyway, so take what we can get.
Option 2--vote against it. After watching the whole "accepted fares" fiasco develop and seeing how our company can read any contract between the lines to their advantage, I have doubts about anyone getting the "full COLA". I also think the rent verses own thing is more than a little bogus. Why penalize a guy who wants to invest some of that money in foreign real estate? If the company pays the money--who cares how the guy or gal spends it? I think the travel to/from at coach is pretty scuzzy. As someone pointed out, with the great European train system, I think the 100 nm rule to keep you on the plantation is bogus as well. Lux City is an expat friendly place--but you can't move there under this LOA. All of these may have some input from the host country, but overall it seems to me the company is just trying to get all it can in concessions from the crew force on the cheap.
Of course--lots of folks will say "just don't bid it". Well...I'm not going to. For those of you seriuosly considering bidding these FDAs, my question is "how do you want ME to vote? and why?" I don't want to throw you under the bus with ZERO extra benefits if you go over there, but at the same time I think with a little resolve we might be able to get a better deal. Is playing poker and holding out for more with the chance of getting nothing extra what you want, or do you want me to ink it?
Honestly--I think the MEC's input is pretty much useless to my opinion at this point. I don't see anyone from that crowd going over there, so I don't think they are going to go to mat on this unless we throw it back. So--the 40k question--sign this thing or risk getting nothing on a better deal? So who is going to Europe or HK and how do you want me to vote?
As a guy who would not go overseas anyway I have two choices:
Option 1--support my union MEC and vote for this thing. The benefit to me is the bid gets here sooner and perhaps I can upgrade or get more senior in my seat. I show "unity" and support for the guys who worked this out. Realize with our current CBA the company doesn't have to offer anything anyway, so take what we can get.
Option 2--vote against it. After watching the whole "accepted fares" fiasco develop and seeing how our company can read any contract between the lines to their advantage, I have doubts about anyone getting the "full COLA". I also think the rent verses own thing is more than a little bogus. Why penalize a guy who wants to invest some of that money in foreign real estate? If the company pays the money--who cares how the guy or gal spends it? I think the travel to/from at coach is pretty scuzzy. As someone pointed out, with the great European train system, I think the 100 nm rule to keep you on the plantation is bogus as well. Lux City is an expat friendly place--but you can't move there under this LOA. All of these may have some input from the host country, but overall it seems to me the company is just trying to get all it can in concessions from the crew force on the cheap.
Of course--lots of folks will say "just don't bid it". Well...I'm not going to. For those of you seriuosly considering bidding these FDAs, my question is "how do you want ME to vote? and why?" I don't want to throw you under the bus with ZERO extra benefits if you go over there, but at the same time I think with a little resolve we might be able to get a better deal. Is playing poker and holding out for more with the chance of getting nothing extra what you want, or do you want me to ink it?
Honestly--I think the MEC's input is pretty much useless to my opinion at this point. I don't see anyone from that crowd going over there, so I don't think they are going to go to mat on this unless we throw it back. So--the 40k question--sign this thing or risk getting nothing on a better deal? So who is going to Europe or HK and how do you want me to vote?
06-28-2007, 03:57 AM
#16
Beaches and Sand
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Chasing Surf
Posts: 368
Does anyone know what the corporate side is getting or has gotten for a move package/school/housing and Cola or even a maintainer if they are going. We've got to send other than just the crew force.
06-28-2007, 03:58 AM
#17
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: A 300 Capt.
Posts: 10
I wonder how may virgins DW and the boys got for this? Not too often you see such a big step back from the current contract, not to mention a step back from the standard for large companies relocating employees overseas. BTW, the bonus was reduced to $10K from $20K/Capts $15K for FOs (6E1e). The tax leveling = NO COLA. You are expected to sell your plantation in MEM or keep paying your mortgage while they put your stuff in storage. Gee thanks!
There are so many potential give backs and bad deals this reeks of another parking lot fiasco.
You guys that think this won't affect your MSY out and backs, think again. You buy into this and it shows you will be gullible enough for anything.
Good work Skypine for the early analysis.
There are so many potential give backs and bad deals this reeks of another parking lot fiasco.
You guys that think this won't affect your MSY out and backs, think again. You buy into this and it shows you will be gullible enough for anything.
Good work Skypine for the early analysis.
06-28-2007, 04:54 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 890
Originally Posted by skypine27
I can not BELIEVE that this was voted in favor of 11-1 by our Union. Between this and DW's stand on the retro age 60 fiasco, I don't wear an ALPA pin or Lanyard anymore.
For MEM, ANC, and LAX guys who don't want to take the time to read the whole thing (and/or who aren't lawyers) before voting, here is a summary:
1--Housing allowance of $2700/mo (LOA B.2.d.i) if you rent. You'll get $1300/mo (LOA B.2.d.ii) if you buy. You have to live within 100 miles (LOA B.2.d.iii) of HKG (assuming HKG is the "base airport") Please remember that a "normal" apartment big enough to house you, your wife, and one kid is roughly 8500++ USD per month in any desirable area of HKG, and that you are RENTING, and not building equity in anything.
2-- Remember the two hour limit on ground transport? That's gone. Get ready for a midnight van ride to Guangzhou for a 3 am show (LOA sect. G).
3-- Want to go back to visit the folks stateside? You'll be able to do just that (along with your family) on an annual basis. . . in coach class. . . after having been in your new base for two years (LOA B.2.f). Perhaps after that amount of time you will have forgotten about Grandma. Out of sight out of mind?
4-- Relocation allowance of $10K or 79 credit hours (contract 6.C.2) is now just $10,000 (LOA B.2.a) and you'll get an additional $5000. . . after 4 YEARS of staying in your new base. (LOA B.2.b)
5-- Minimum commitment is 2 years (LOA B.2). Let's be conservative and assume you are single with no wife and kids, and can live in a very nice van down by the river in HKG for $6000/mo. You're paying $3,300 out of pocket (utilities aside) for rent (which we all know it lost money). . . $3300/mo for min commitment of 24 months equals your cost for living in HKG for two years-- $79,200!! Remember, that's for the van down by the river. . .
6-- We're getting "tax equalization." In other words, you will pay the exact same taxes as if you lived in the USA. Isn't that the whole point of being an ex-pat, to avoid paying US Federal income tax (on the 1st 84K anyway) Take away that benefit, and still expect guys to live in THE most expensive, one of the MOST polluted (complete with air you can see), and crowded cities in the world?? I have never, ever, in the history of any US company basing employees overseas, heard of taking away the tax benefit Is FedEX honing its stand-up routine or what?
I hope FedEX is ready to fill the FO side of HKG with new hires. And I hope FedEX is ready to change its typical hiring practice. I'd love to listen in on the phone call from Kim to the typical, 38 year old, ex-military guy, with a wife and 3 kids... "Hello, congrats, you are hired at FedEX and we're ready to offer you a class date! You'll be going to Hong Kong, the most expensive city for ex-pat housing in the world. You can not afford to bring your wife, and we will not assist you in any way at all in schooling your children, because that only costs around $15,000 per year, EACH. And, we're going to pay you 52 bucks an hour! Welcome aboard!"
FedEX is going to need start hiring guys like the Commuter airlines do. 24 years old, no wife, no kids, little debt, still getting money from mom and dad, still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome, and willing to take ANY offer to get out of their CFI job.
It would be illegal and unethical for me to tell anyone how to vote on this LOA. But please be aware of the facts of living in a city like HKG, and be aware that this will set a precedent that affects far more than 80 guys.
Vote your consciousness.
For MEM, ANC, and LAX guys who don't want to take the time to read the whole thing (and/or who aren't lawyers) before voting, here is a summary:
1--Housing allowance of $2700/mo (LOA B.2.d.i) if you rent. You'll get $1300/mo (LOA B.2.d.ii) if you buy. You have to live within 100 miles (LOA B.2.d.iii) of HKG (assuming HKG is the "base airport") Please remember that a "normal" apartment big enough to house you, your wife, and one kid is roughly 8500++ USD per month in any desirable area of HKG, and that you are RENTING, and not building equity in anything.
2-- Remember the two hour limit on ground transport? That's gone. Get ready for a midnight van ride to Guangzhou for a 3 am show (LOA sect. G).
3-- Want to go back to visit the folks stateside? You'll be able to do just that (along with your family) on an annual basis. . . in coach class. . . after having been in your new base for two years (LOA B.2.f). Perhaps after that amount of time you will have forgotten about Grandma. Out of sight out of mind?
4-- Relocation allowance of $10K or 79 credit hours (contract 6.C.2) is now just $10,000 (LOA B.2.a) and you'll get an additional $5000. . . after 4 YEARS of staying in your new base. (LOA B.2.b)
5-- Minimum commitment is 2 years (LOA B.2). Let's be conservative and assume you are single with no wife and kids, and can live in a very nice van down by the river in HKG for $6000/mo. You're paying $3,300 out of pocket (utilities aside) for rent (which we all know it lost money). . . $3300/mo for min commitment of 24 months equals your cost for living in HKG for two years-- $79,200!! Remember, that's for the van down by the river. . .
6-- We're getting "tax equalization." In other words, you will pay the exact same taxes as if you lived in the USA. Isn't that the whole point of being an ex-pat, to avoid paying US Federal income tax (on the 1st 84K anyway) Take away that benefit, and still expect guys to live in THE most expensive, one of the MOST polluted (complete with air you can see), and crowded cities in the world?? I have never, ever, in the history of any US company basing employees overseas, heard of taking away the tax benefit Is FedEX honing its stand-up routine or what?
I hope FedEX is ready to fill the FO side of HKG with new hires. And I hope FedEX is ready to change its typical hiring practice. I'd love to listen in on the phone call from Kim to the typical, 38 year old, ex-military guy, with a wife and 3 kids... "Hello, congrats, you are hired at FedEX and we're ready to offer you a class date! You'll be going to Hong Kong, the most expensive city for ex-pat housing in the world. You can not afford to bring your wife, and we will not assist you in any way at all in schooling your children, because that only costs around $15,000 per year, EACH. And, we're going to pay you 52 bucks an hour! Welcome aboard!"
FedEX is going to need start hiring guys like the Commuter airlines do. 24 years old, no wife, no kids, little debt, still getting money from mom and dad, still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome, and willing to take ANY offer to get out of their CFI job.
It would be illegal and unethical for me to tell anyone how to vote on this LOA. But please be aware of the facts of living in a city like HKG, and be aware that this will set a precedent that affects far more than 80 guys.
Vote your consciousness.
06-28-2007, 05:11 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
I'm voting no.
1. Money is not enough.
2. STV should be permanent, not limited to two years.
The union says they talked to a Tax expert. Can't they post what a typical 5 year F/O or 8 Year Capt would expect to pay on taxes?
Why dosen't the MEC tell us what the company opened with and what we countered with?
1. Money is not enough.
2. STV should be permanent, not limited to two years.
The union says they talked to a Tax expert. Can't they post what a typical 5 year F/O or 8 Year Capt would expect to pay on taxes?
Why dosen't the MEC tell us what the company opened with and what we countered with?
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