Snake in the Grass
07-02-2007, 09:03 AM
#1
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Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Snake in the Grass
The more I look at D. Temporary Vacancies for HKG and CDG, the more concerned I get.
It looks to me like the company can send you involuntarily overseas for 3 bid periods every 18 bid periods, or 90-120 days ever year and a half.
All this talk of "well...we are screwing the JUNIOR folks" may be N/A. You may be screwing a lot of guys WHO AREN'T that junior into doing A300 FO flying in China who really don't want to be there--for the price of a hotel room, perdiem, and a coach ticket for family. Here's why:
First--I am not sure how USERRA affects this, but sending a guy with ANG/Reserve obligations creates a few problems. First--he/she has required drills, training, and events they must do. Second--there are likely some security issues. We've got an F-22 pilot and a 1 or 2 star general running around our campus....a former B-2 driver, etc. There may be some guys with security clearance issues. So--let's make assumption one--that some guys opt out of being "inversed" with military leave.
Next--you can only go once every 18 months. Suppose FDX needs 10 A300 FOs to fill out the China slots. They start at the bottom of the list. 3-4 opt out with military leave. We are now up to 14 from the bottom of this list. The company can inversley assign according the LOA "the most junior qualified pilots." Who is qualified? What if pilot 15 has a baby on the way, and pilot 16 has a special needs child? Who makes the call if they go? I suspect the ACP and CP would have to confer. Suppose they agree these guys don't need to go...who's next...now we are at 17 and 18 from the bottom. And guys...that is for THIS bid period of 3 bid periods. Guess what happens in 90-120 days? We start OVER...this time at Mr 18 from the bottom of the list. THIS HAS TO POTENTIAL TO AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE BESIDES THE BOTTOM 20%. You could end up working well up the list as guys came up with reasons--legitimate or otherwise--to opt out of going over. I can see no bigger morale destroyer than sending guys over out of seniority order, and having to involve union and company officals to decide who's "right" to go and who isn't. Think cubicile politics are nasty now? Imagine guys sucking up to CPs begging not to get sent. What would destroy unity quicker?
Since I've been at FDX, we have never really had junior manning. If you weren't on reserve, you didnt' have to fly [U]if you didn't want to![U] This LOA changes all of that. How many of you former military guys sat around waiting for the shoe to drop on the next "bad deal" to the 90-120 day non flying gig? At least there you got a combat tax exclusion, which will save more money that the tax equalization proposed here. The big issue isn't money--its control! Do you really want to be called by your ACP and told "pack your bags, you are off to China for 3 months! Don't worry--mom and the kids can join you (if she doesn't work, gets all the kids their shots, finds someone to watch the house, take care of the pets, etc etc) and fly coach across the Pacific to join you in your hotel."
I think this ability to junior man the overseas bases is the most dangerous thing in a contract I've seen since I've been at FedEx. Think volunteers will suck up all these slots? What happens when the next bout of Bird Flu, SARS, terrorist strikes, or a move by China against Taiwan occur? Sure would stink to have to choose between leaving your family three months or losing your job.
For me--the more I read this--not "NO" but "HELL NO". And its not about the money. Keep the CBA as is and open your domiciles--but don't send us involuntarily.
And yes--I know they can inverse SIBA....it happened to me in 04 on the 727 (really!) But SIBA bidpacks allow you to come home every month, and are nothing like being stuck abroad. I'd compare the two to being stationed in theater like a KC-135 or an F-15, verses flying in and out of country in a C-17. Both are tough jobs, but the C-17 guy gets to kiss the wife and kids every couple weeks back home in Charleston or McChord. Those other guys are stuck away for a very, very long time.
It looks to me like the company can send you involuntarily overseas for 3 bid periods every 18 bid periods, or 90-120 days ever year and a half.
All this talk of "well...we are screwing the JUNIOR folks" may be N/A. You may be screwing a lot of guys WHO AREN'T that junior into doing A300 FO flying in China who really don't want to be there--for the price of a hotel room, perdiem, and a coach ticket for family. Here's why:
First--I am not sure how USERRA affects this, but sending a guy with ANG/Reserve obligations creates a few problems. First--he/she has required drills, training, and events they must do. Second--there are likely some security issues. We've got an F-22 pilot and a 1 or 2 star general running around our campus....a former B-2 driver, etc. There may be some guys with security clearance issues. So--let's make assumption one--that some guys opt out of being "inversed" with military leave.
Next--you can only go once every 18 months. Suppose FDX needs 10 A300 FOs to fill out the China slots. They start at the bottom of the list. 3-4 opt out with military leave. We are now up to 14 from the bottom of this list. The company can inversley assign according the LOA "the most junior qualified pilots." Who is qualified? What if pilot 15 has a baby on the way, and pilot 16 has a special needs child? Who makes the call if they go? I suspect the ACP and CP would have to confer. Suppose they agree these guys don't need to go...who's next...now we are at 17 and 18 from the bottom. And guys...that is for THIS bid period of 3 bid periods. Guess what happens in 90-120 days? We start OVER...this time at Mr 18 from the bottom of the list. THIS HAS TO POTENTIAL TO AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE BESIDES THE BOTTOM 20%. You could end up working well up the list as guys came up with reasons--legitimate or otherwise--to opt out of going over. I can see no bigger morale destroyer than sending guys over out of seniority order, and having to involve union and company officals to decide who's "right" to go and who isn't. Think cubicile politics are nasty now? Imagine guys sucking up to CPs begging not to get sent. What would destroy unity quicker?
Since I've been at FDX, we have never really had junior manning. If you weren't on reserve, you didnt' have to fly [U]if you didn't want to![U] This LOA changes all of that. How many of you former military guys sat around waiting for the shoe to drop on the next "bad deal" to the 90-120 day non flying gig? At least there you got a combat tax exclusion, which will save more money that the tax equalization proposed here. The big issue isn't money--its control! Do you really want to be called by your ACP and told "pack your bags, you are off to China for 3 months! Don't worry--mom and the kids can join you (if she doesn't work, gets all the kids their shots, finds someone to watch the house, take care of the pets, etc etc) and fly coach across the Pacific to join you in your hotel."
I think this ability to junior man the overseas bases is the most dangerous thing in a contract I've seen since I've been at FedEx. Think volunteers will suck up all these slots? What happens when the next bout of Bird Flu, SARS, terrorist strikes, or a move by China against Taiwan occur? Sure would stink to have to choose between leaving your family three months or losing your job.
For me--the more I read this--not "NO" but "HELL NO". And its not about the money. Keep the CBA as is and open your domiciles--but don't send us involuntarily.
And yes--I know they can inverse SIBA....it happened to me in 04 on the 727 (really!) But SIBA bidpacks allow you to come home every month, and are nothing like being stuck abroad. I'd compare the two to being stationed in theater like a KC-135 or an F-15, verses flying in and out of country in a C-17. Both are tough jobs, but the C-17 guy gets to kiss the wife and kids every couple weeks back home in Charleston or McChord. Those other guys are stuck away for a very, very long time.
Last edited by Albief15; 07-02-2007 at 09:33 AM.
07-02-2007, 09:47 AM
#2
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Excessed WB Capt.
Posts: 1,063
I. Crew Position Changes to Different FDAs in the Same Geographic Location
If the Company opens multiple FDAs in the same geographic location (e.g., 757
MEM/CDG; A300 MEM/CDG), the following shall apply to pilots who activate into
a different FDA within the same geographic location (e.g., a 757 F/O MEM/CDG
upgrades to A300 F/O MEM/CDG).
The above part of the contract makes it sound to me that they could possibly open a CDG A300 FDA. They probably intend to use the airbus but have used only the 757 as an example. They probably intend to do the same to md11 but have not announced it. This LOA has WAY too many loopholes. You have got to have ironclad language with FEDEX. The fact that the mec brought this to us without thinking about all the possible ramifications is scary
If the Company opens multiple FDAs in the same geographic location (e.g., 757
MEM/CDG; A300 MEM/CDG), the following shall apply to pilots who activate into
a different FDA within the same geographic location (e.g., a 757 F/O MEM/CDG
upgrades to A300 F/O MEM/CDG).
The above part of the contract makes it sound to me that they could possibly open a CDG A300 FDA. They probably intend to use the airbus but have used only the 757 as an example. They probably intend to do the same to md11 but have not announced it. This LOA has WAY too many loopholes. You have got to have ironclad language with FEDEX. The fact that the mec brought this to us without thinking about all the possible ramifications is scary
07-02-2007, 10:48 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 531
Albie and MEMA300,
I believe both of you have brought up one of the more critical parts of this LOA. By allowing inverse manning for STV, the company can increase the manning at whim for these bases and also decide to add additional airframes to the mix. It's not unrealistic at all to believe that the company will use this section for the Airbus in CDG until enough 757 airframes are acquired and crews trained to make the swap. This could easily happen with the MD-11 in HKG as well.
Some people have made the argument that not voting for the LOA would be a screw job for new hires if the company decided to fill the vacancies that way. Well voting for the LOA would be a screw job for junior guys already on the property. I think guys on the team are more important than future draft picks.
I believe both of you have brought up one of the more critical parts of this LOA. By allowing inverse manning for STV, the company can increase the manning at whim for these bases and also decide to add additional airframes to the mix. It's not unrealistic at all to believe that the company will use this section for the Airbus in CDG until enough 757 airframes are acquired and crews trained to make the swap. This could easily happen with the MD-11 in HKG as well.
Some people have made the argument that not voting for the LOA would be a screw job for new hires if the company decided to fill the vacancies that way. Well voting for the LOA would be a screw job for junior guys already on the property. I think guys on the team are more important than future draft picks.
07-02-2007, 11:17 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
Originally Posted by MEMA300
The fact that the mec brought this to us without thinking about all the possible ramifications is scary
07-02-2007, 03:56 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I'm not sure the union is "screwing" anyone on this. I just don't think we have ever dealt with being made to work against our will in our company's history. With this LOA they can do just that. This is new territory, and probably hasn't been completely thought out.
Also--the "self help" option goes away at any FDA. If pilots there slow down, the company just "inverses" more stateside guys to fill up the gap.
This is a bad deal guys....
Also--the "self help" option goes away at any FDA. If pilots there slow down, the company just "inverses" more stateside guys to fill up the gap.
This is a bad deal guys....
07-02-2007, 04:52 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 147
Albie-
Boy, I could see this inversing thing as a tremendous blow to unity. I'm reminded of my Navy days when we were gearing up for deployment - talk about rats trying to flee a burning ship! People would come up with some unbelievable tales to avoid going overseas!
I see this situation as very similar and potentially fatal to crew unity. Consider the mil guys. Now, I'm not mil bashing (I served MANY years in the USN), and I know some guys truly work hard in the guard/res...but....I also know plenty of guys who use mil leave as the ultimate crew scheduling tool. I can't tell you how ****ed I would be to be inversed ahead of a guy junior to me serving in some non-paying billet somewhere in ANYUNIT, USA who is simply marking time until 20 yrs. Just an example, but there is no simple solution.
On the other hand, this could mean a boon for the local recruiters!
I might consider rejoining for one of those aforementioned non-paybing billets to avoid HKG!
Boy, I could see this inversing thing as a tremendous blow to unity. I'm reminded of my Navy days when we were gearing up for deployment - talk about rats trying to flee a burning ship! People would come up with some unbelievable tales to avoid going overseas!
I see this situation as very similar and potentially fatal to crew unity. Consider the mil guys. Now, I'm not mil bashing (I served MANY years in the USN), and I know some guys truly work hard in the guard/res...but....I also know plenty of guys who use mil leave as the ultimate crew scheduling tool. I can't tell you how ****ed I would be to be inversed ahead of a guy junior to me serving in some non-paying billet somewhere in ANYUNIT, USA who is simply marking time until 20 yrs. Just an example, but there is no simple solution.
On the other hand, this could mean a boon for the local recruiters!
I might consider rejoining for one of those aforementioned non-paybing billets to avoid HKG!
07-02-2007, 04:57 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Completely Apolitical Nonsensical Slogan that has nothing to do with politics in the slightest....
Posts: 160
"What we're going to do is get a whole bunch of pipe wielding pilots, and get hypothe
tical on his a$$!!"
As far as "junior manning" goes, it would have to be with current and qualified Airbus Guys for HKG and 757 guys for CDG. Right?
So, a bid comes out with a butt load of 757 slots for CDG and MEM. No one bids the CDG slots, but everyone who wants the 75 bids Mempho. So the Mempho guys go to training earlier than they would have normally and then immediately get inversed to CDG. But they can only do 3 of 18 months, and they run out of crews really dang quick to do the STV rope-a-dope. To the guys who want to bid the 757 MEM: "I know what you're thinking.... Was that 2 months of STV in the last 18 or 3.... To tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've lost track... So you have to ask yourself one question... Do you feel like sitting your lilly _____ (insert color of your posterior here) a$$ in a hotel in CDG only to have your concubine ride coach for 8 hours just to try to requal with 'Krull the Warrior King' only to find out that due to all this stress even the blue pills don't work.... Well do you? Punk!!"
The Airbus guys present a different problem. They have the Subic hostages to backfill HKG until the smoke clears. All they have to do is make room in MEM for them and then STV their posteriors right back to HKG (in reverse seniority order, of course) which means the junior bizzos in MEM get humped by the "returning" senior Subicians.
It would seem that it is a vertiable butt load of pain, confusion and best laid plans falling apart if such a scenario were to play out. After all, unhappy pilots are apt to execute schedule improvement initiatives.
Sounds like to me that this is one hot potato that no one wants landing on their desk. Career disipation lights will be flashing in alot of corner offices if this one goes down like this. That's even worse than the Master Warning Light Flashing with the accompanying aural warning: "Ding Ding Ding... Checkride Fail!"
I can see it now, the guys responsible for the impending disaster when one of the biggest pushes for growth in a number of years blows up because there's no one left to dry hump:
"Honest. I ran outta gas. I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from outta town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake, a terrible flood, locust's. It wasn't my fault!! I swear to God!!"
Personally I think this whole thing has backfired on everyone... MGT, because they thought they had the MEC on the cheap, MEC because they felt they couldn't get anything better, and the pilot group, because no one in their right mind would jump on this grenade. Medal of Fred or not.
Best thing that we can do is vote it down and go back to the drawing board for a more reasonable deal...
Cathay or better,
TSD
As far as "junior manning" goes, it would have to be with current and qualified Airbus Guys for HKG and 757 guys for CDG. Right?
So, a bid comes out with a butt load of 757 slots for CDG and MEM. No one bids the CDG slots, but everyone who wants the 75 bids Mempho. So the Mempho guys go to training earlier than they would have normally and then immediately get inversed to CDG. But they can only do 3 of 18 months, and they run out of crews really dang quick to do the STV rope-a-dope. To the guys who want to bid the 757 MEM: "I know what you're thinking.... Was that 2 months of STV in the last 18 or 3.... To tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've lost track... So you have to ask yourself one question... Do you feel like sitting your lilly _____ (insert color of your posterior here) a$$ in a hotel in CDG only to have your concubine ride coach for 8 hours just to try to requal with 'Krull the Warrior King' only to find out that due to all this stress even the blue pills don't work.... Well do you? Punk!!"
The Airbus guys present a different problem. They have the Subic hostages to backfill HKG until the smoke clears. All they have to do is make room in MEM for them and then STV their posteriors right back to HKG (in reverse seniority order, of course) which means the junior bizzos in MEM get humped by the "returning" senior Subicians.
It would seem that it is a vertiable butt load of pain, confusion and best laid plans falling apart if such a scenario were to play out. After all, unhappy pilots are apt to execute schedule improvement initiatives.
Sounds like to me that this is one hot potato that no one wants landing on their desk. Career disipation lights will be flashing in alot of corner offices if this one goes down like this. That's even worse than the Master Warning Light Flashing with the accompanying aural warning: "Ding Ding Ding... Checkride Fail!"
I can see it now, the guys responsible for the impending disaster when one of the biggest pushes for growth in a number of years blows up because there's no one left to dry hump:
"Honest. I ran outta gas. I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from outta town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake, a terrible flood, locust's. It wasn't my fault!! I swear to God!!"
Personally I think this whole thing has backfired on everyone... MGT, because they thought they had the MEC on the cheap, MEC because they felt they couldn't get anything better, and the pilot group, because no one in their right mind would jump on this grenade. Medal of Fred or not.
Best thing that we can do is vote it down and go back to the drawing board for a more reasonable deal...
Cathay or better,
TSD
Last edited by Twiceskunkeddog; 07-02-2007 at 05:06 PM.
07-02-2007, 05:46 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by Twiceskunkeddog
As far as "junior manning" goes, it would have to be with current and qualified Airbus Guys for HKG and 757 guys for CDG. Right?
So, a bid comes out with a butt load of 757 slots for CDG and MEM. No one bids the CDG slots, but everyone who wants the 75 bids Mempho. So the Mempho guys go to training earlier than they would have normally and then immediately get inversed to CDG. But they can only do 3 of 18 months, and they run out of crews really dang quick to do the STV rope-a-dope. To the guys who want to bid the 757 MEM: "I know what you're thinking.... Was that 2 months of STV in the last 18 or 3.... To tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've lost track... So you have to ask yourself one question... Do you feel like sitting your lilly _____ (insert color of your posterior here) a$$ in a hotel in CDG only to have your concubine ride coach for 8 hours just to try to requal with 'Krull the Warrior King' only to find out that due to all this stress even the blue pills don't work.... Well do you? Punk!!"
So, a bid comes out with a butt load of 757 slots for CDG and MEM. No one bids the CDG slots, but everyone who wants the 75 bids Mempho. So the Mempho guys go to training earlier than they would have normally and then immediately get inversed to CDG. But they can only do 3 of 18 months, and they run out of crews really dang quick to do the STV rope-a-dope. To the guys who want to bid the 757 MEM: "I know what you're thinking.... Was that 2 months of STV in the last 18 or 3.... To tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've lost track... So you have to ask yourself one question... Do you feel like sitting your lilly _____ (insert color of your posterior here) a$$ in a hotel in CDG only to have your concubine ride coach for 8 hours just to try to requal with 'Krull the Warrior King' only to find out that due to all this stress even the blue pills don't work.... Well do you? Punk!!"
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