What are we paying dues for?
 

The thing that bothers me the most is large amount of unanswered questions in this LOA. What are we paying the union to do? Send DW and BC out on a paid vacation and they come back and rubber stamp the company offer. On the forum alone I have read at least 30 valid questions that should be addressed in this LOA and nobody has an answer for them. In addition, it appears there should be separate LOA's for each base. And, the tax equalization should be a choice for each pilot. Many more that I will not get into now, but do you see my point? If all our MEC can provide for us to vote on is this vague POS, than I am all for a recall.

Lipout,

No secret I've been frustrated by some of the age 60 stuff and some of the responses from some of the block reps.

You'll probably get more audience if you realize a lot of this stuff ain't personal. Our MEC probably did make some mistakes on this--I was one guy who was pretty dead set against STVs.

Not trying to sound preachy--but I will say for whatever you think of the LOA (and I've voted no) Sleepy, Tony, and a few other guys have put in some serious overtime trying to do the best they can. I agree there are a lot of holes right now. I'm against the LOA. I think some of the MEC is out of touch with us. I also think we need to fix one issue at a time and keep this businesslike.

Recalling MEC officers is about impossible. Block reps, on the other hand, can be sniped off block by block. I think there is a good case for some new blood. However--if you want to do this--start picking a few good candidates out of your block and then figure out when your next LEC meeting is. You can make some changes and have some input. I've actually chaffed more at some of the comments from some of the reps after the LOA than I did over the money.

However--I recommend you stick to the issue at hand until August 11.

For what its worth--some of your MEC seem to be "getting it" that their crew force will give them more leverage. Some seem to be trying to listen.

The company's line on the dynamic situation in HKG is "we don't know yet, but we'll work it out..." I believe (perhaps somewhat niave) they will do their best to smooth out some of the rough spots. However, based on how they do BUSINESS, we need to make sure our LOA is fairly clear and tight. Voting against this LOA isn't personal--its just business.

My latest realization that we need to have things in writing? I did 5 days in a hotel on a week long pairing a few months back. I signed up for internet service and put it on company credit card. Lost a receipt for 2 days worth of internet service... Admin folks were in hub the other day helping with expense reports, and I was advised I could A) send a letter to my CP requesting approval for expense with lost receipt ($19.90) or B) eat it. Considering I had to call/pester DM enough last month about getting back on flight status, I decided just to eat this one. He might fix it with a pen stroke, but geez--do I really have to bug him (especially since he is in transition) to do all that when my calendar, my company credit card, and the other records all point to the fact I WAS in the Sheraton Waterside those days? The answer you'll get from the company is "hey--its just business" My answer on the LOA is the same--but without an malice or snide tones. When we are getting optimized, nickeled and dimed on expense reports, and fighting with CPs over "accepted fares", its kind of hard to accept that if we'll just dive on this grenade and go to these FDAs it will somehow all work out. I think there is a lot of room for clarifying a lot of these points you mentioned, as well as some other areas. If we say "please", and "NO thank you" instead of "why don't you *&^* shove this up you &^%&" I think we'll all get a lot farther along.

Albie, The point is that we pay good money to have these things researched in great detail before it is presented to us. I am saying now that our MEC is out of touch and are not the smartest deal makers on the planet. Maybe they need to scan the forums on the net and see what some of the brighter pilots have questions about and address them in our next proposal if this is turned down. If they don't, its time to get rid of them and the staff we are paying for.

Sorry for the thread drift...but, did you call the Sheraton and ask them to send/fax you a copy of the receipt?

I have to say, as I have said before, I totally agree with what you are saying.
Albief and TonyC were my biggest critics when I was trying to get the Union to give us more on translating some of the finer details of the contract when it first came out.
Everyone was going "read it yourself it's not the unions job"...Bunk!
Same thing on this LOA, and the age 60 issue.
There job is to communicate with this crew force....they haven't and this is what we are getting.

Another GREAT point... we need to look at what else is going on all around us while we concentrate on Age 60 and the LOA. The Company is sticking it to us as we speak, they are continuing to crank the screws down on the optimizer. The 727 has more and more disputes, they want to change that flying so that when it transitions to the 757 or A300 it will be "normal" and the guys in the 727 did it...

If it makes you fatigued reading the pairing then it probably is. Make the call when you need to, it is our only Safety protection, the Company certainly is not looking at Fatigue models. They look at one thing, $$$$.

Sorry for changing the subject.

Lipout,
I have a couple of comments. The first is that each link in this chain has its purpose. The company is trying to negotiate the best deal for them and it is usually based on dollars and future company growth with a safety foundation. The union is trying to negotiate the best deal for us and it is usually based on dollars and future family/financial growth for us, but also on quality of life and safety. Their job is to get us the best contract the company is willing to offer. After they feel they have the best the company will offer, not the best offer they want, then they hand it over to us. It is then our job to either say, "this is sufficient, or this is not acceptable to us." We are now in the last phase, and it is our responsibility to vote. I voted no for that reason. This LOA is not acceptable for reasons I have posted before. Mainly, STV and not having a yearly renewable LOA until we incorporate in a contract. Still, I voted no and the other members should do the same if this is unacceptable.
On another note, if you feel the union is out of touch with us or that they did not negotiate hard enough to get the best the company will offer, then we need to work to replace some of the the union officials at voting time. Better yet, run yourself.
Finally, and I am guilty of this, we need to send our issues to our block reps. I see the power this forum has in regards to communication, so I know ALPA and the company will read my words here. It is sad that we don't have our own system like this, but this is effective as seen by the LOA side letter. Still, we need to send these issues to our union leaders to use the official process in place of getting things changed. Also, they need to solicit more from us to see what is acceptable.

I agree with Trapav8r.
Just out of curiousity, how many times have you talked to your block rep? E-mailed him? Not just some anonymous post on a web forum. If we don't communicate with our reps, telling them of our issues and desires, they cannot be accused of not representing us.

BTW - After the age 60 deal, I doubt we will ever see another web-poll.

There should NEVER have been one LOA drawn up for two different cities, in two different countries, on two different continents, in two different hemispheres, with two different economies, and just ONE SET OF HARD NUMBERS for housing allowance, etc. This is gross incompetence on the part of our MEC/NC, frankly. There's also no need to reinvent the wheel here ... it would have been simple to peg a Captain's HOA/COLA to, say, the DOD allowance for an O-5, and peg an F/O's HOA/COLA to the DOD allowance for an O-4 for each particular city. The DOD has already done the economic survey, the scale reflects the different in rank, earnings, station in life, reasonable (i.e., not luxurious) standard of living, etc.

This is why we need PROFESSIONAL negotiators, not pilots who think that because they can fly a mighty fine single-engine ILS, it means they're ****e-hot at whatever else they attempt. This is no time for moon-lighting, folks.

Maybe I should have said "shee-it hot" and it wouldn't have been censored.

Maybe I should have said "shee-it hot", instead of what rhymes with "white-hot", and it wouldn't have been censored.

Maybe you should use the "edit" button! ;)

You said "Minot"? WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT YOU DIRTY BIRD!:D
fbh

I've been wrong in the past (there was that time back in '97, when I thought I was wrong, but I was actually right:D), and I could be wrong here too, but don't we avail ourselves of all of ALPA's resources, including their professional negotiators and contract attorneys, when our negotiating committee negotiates something?? If we don't use them directly, do we not at least pass these documents to them for their comment and recommendations?? I'm hoping the answers to the above is a resounding "YES."

I agree with communicating with your block rep but... are they really listening? During the age 60 debacle I sent a total of 5 emails to my block rep and other union officials with the last to DW. Of the 5 responses, 4 of them stated that if I didn't like the way things were going then I should run for office and change it. I liked DW's the best. It was filled with sarcasm and he even offered to "help me in any way" to run for office. All I wanted was a few answers. From the responses I guess any member who has a question or concern with how things are going should just shut up and run for office. At least that's the impression I get every time I send an email to them.:rolleyes:

That is a "stock" answer you get from most of them.....when they don't have an answer for you and disagree with you....
They act like this is all volunteer work....

I'm glad they are doing it but that isn't an acceptable answer.

Always the answer. If you dont like it run for office. Talk to your block rep. I guess we can see on this thread who our union officers are. How about this, why dont you that have been elected listen to us. Oh, no, you know best and if you dont like it run for office or shut up

You got a question, call me. Call the office, ext. 2011, I'll get a text message when you leave a message, and I'll call you.

Just answer all the questions on all the threads that the MEC has not. No call needed. If you cannot or will not do that, than what is a phone call from me going to accomplish. The questions are out there. answer them to everyone.

I answer them in hubturns and in messages and emails. We are working on answering others in messages to the members. I have tried to answer all that has been asked in hubturns and emails. Ask Albie, FDXLAG, hfp, prezbear, afw-md11, micro, etc.

I cannot get into debates on here. I have given you a venue to ask your questions, and I will answer them honestly and truthfully, all that I ask is that you call for more indepth answers.

Do you want to guess what percentage of the crew force is present in these "limited" engagements? I doubt if you have addressed over 10% of the crewforce, and I am being generous. NOT because they don't want to but because they are working in another domicile, another country or live someplace other than the HUB. Why don't you give the rest of us a break and quit using the "hubturn meetings" as your only venue. This medium reaches far more people even if they don't respond.

1) Post industry comparisons (Cathay, etc.) to show the justification for the numbers. Here is one to start I just saw that has merit...

I am offering those that are on here a venue to get their questions answered, nothing more, nothing less. I view this is another way for members to get their questions answered via direct contact.

Ok Sleepy, I appreciate your effort. My point is this. There are at least 20-30 well thought out questions about this LOA on this forum. I applaud U for getting on here and trying to address a few. You have my vote. But what you need to do is comb this forum for the many unanswered questions and ask the MEC to address them. Not just me on the telephone. I'm just one of the many and the tidal wave is growing. You better get a surf board. Thanks for being here but you should be asking what do we need to put in the next LOA for you to vote for. In the mean time if you dont agree with the rank and file, then live with your self

Shameless plug attempt
 

Sleepy,

Not saying you would b/c it is completely your choice, but you could engage in a debate if this discussion were on the ALPA boards instead of APC correct?

I accept your attempt to answer and thank you for trying.....As has been said, there are loads of VERY VALID questions that have been asked on this board....
You can take your choice and answer them as you can....All we want is some answers from the ones who should have some answers.

1) Post industry comparisons (Cathay, etc.) to show the justification for the numbers. Why not start here it is a good question....

2) why was that committee chair fired or replaced....I know from others who have been given the boot that this is an all too common practice with no accountability to the membership and usually no explanation.

Sleepy,

You are doing a stand up job, but disagreements on answers are still happening. Let me quote Jack:

Even though the voting period is open for the FDA LOA, there are still many good questions being asked, and ALPA and the Company have been attempting to answer them as they occur. In a few cases, the questions have made both sides go back and rethink areas that were never discussed or have implications never considered. This is the value of having a month to review the LOA before voting and evidences the difficulty in constructing LOAs.

As far as us peons know the company has not answered questions as they occur but only once and nothing since. You and I disagree on DH pay; we both have opinions. Why is it so hard to get something in writing?

What has been the result of the rethinking? Obviously it will have some impact on the LOA; shouldn't all members find out in writing from our union before the vote closes. Dosen't the Bold sentence indicate that maybe we all rushed into this? I understand ALPA's lawyers are on retainer not hourly workers, what is their advantage to slow leaking answers?

What you think happened isn't what happened.

I have a little more latitude there, not much though, as some may feel like cutting and pasting in other venues outside the ALPA boards. The best venue is face to face, then telephone, then email, then here. That is why we are trying to get the hubturns out there, we had the town hall meeting, etc. The reps and communications are working on trying to answer the questions.

While Cathay's housing allowance may be substantial, I would ask everyone to compare the rest of Cathay's contract and labor relations with management to ours. Cathay pilots have a very different relationship with their management, as the 49ers over there can attest to.

I'm not ignoring this question, I'll try to get back to you on it.

Sleepy -

Does the MEC or ALPA National have "real time" access to the current vote tally?

(i.e. number who have voted, percentage of yes/no votes)

If so, is any/all of this data being shared with the company in any manner?

How is the final talley released from the company who tallies the vote to ALPA National and then down to our MEC?

Thanks in advance for answering these very basic procedural questions on how electronic voting works.

Respectfully,

DLax

No problem this isn't about DH this is about:

"In a few cases, the questions have made both sides go back and rethink areas that were never discussed or have implications never considered"

It can't be 30 days invols because supposedly that was the plan all along. What are the "rethunk" areas or shouldn't we know?

Although I am waiting for Capt Mark's sources to come through.

I'll answer this on the ALPA forums.

Disregard, double post.

I figured as much, I was just trying to underscore the point in our forum community of another possibility of getting good comm. Thx.

Actually, I'll repeat the question, since you can't seem to understand it. Instead of spouting off on an anonymous internet board, have you ever talked to your block rep? Every time I have talked to mine, or e-mailed him, I have gotten an answer. I don't always like the answer, but I have gotten one.

Disclaimer- I am not, nor ever have been a union official. I also voted against FPA integrating with ALPA, due to issues with ALPA at another carrier from 16 years ago. However, the ALPA (and formerly FPA) officials don't deserve half the C%%p you guys throw at them. If you won't even talk to your union, you have no basis to say a damn thing.