Hey Atlas guys.... (UPS)
 

Rumors are going around hot and heavy these days about a UPS purchase of Atlas Holdings. We've been hearing such things for years, but given our current equiptment and pilot bind, it does seem to make a modicum of sense. Supposedly, according to a management pilot, UPS has a team over there now doing a due dillegence check. Are you guys hearing anything at your end?

This one was going around a couple of months ago...supposedly all the action is taking place in MIA...Lots of 747s up for grabs!

747's, from who?

From Atlas themselves...http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...rgo/atlas.html

They have 20 747-400s and 12 747-8s on order with options for 14 more starting in 2010.

Maybe that's the reason Atlanta has ordered the airline to cut $200 million for FY 2008?

This is from Atlas 2006 Annual report. The entire report is full of doom and gloom.

In September 2006, we placed an order for 12 new Boeing 747-8F freighter aircraft that are scheduled to be delivered in 2010 and 2011. As part of this transaction, we also hold options and rights to purchase up to an additional 14 747-8F aircraft at fixed prices. We are required to pay significant pre-delivery deposits to Boeing for these aircraft. We commenced making these pre-delivery payments in the third quarter of 2006. As of December 31, 2006, we had commitments of approximately $2.1 billion associated with this aircraft order (including estimated contractual escalations and applying purchase credits). We typically finance our aircraft, including the required progress payments, through either mortgage debt or lease financing. Although we have received standby financing commitments to finance four of these aircraft, we cannot assure you that we will be able to meet the financing conditions contained in these commitments or to secure other financing at all or on terms attractive to us. If we are unable to secure such financing on acceptable terms, we may be required to incur financing costs that are substantially higher than what we currently anticipate.

The question arises IF UPS buys Atlas AND they decide to keep the pilots, what to do about seniority integration since the VAST majority of Atlas pilots are already trying to get a job at UPS at the BOTTOM of the UPS seniority list. If they keep their Atlas years of service, their pay as a UPS F/O would be much greater than they would ever make as an Atlas captain.

Atlas only owns 6 747-400's, 14 747-200's. The rest of the aircraft are leased.

Isn't Atlas an ALPA carrier ?

Just ask an ex-TWA guy how that ALPA / APA merger worked out for them ... :mad:

Plus, their market cap is only $1.15 billion. That's pocket change to UPS.

Yeah, but now the shoes on your other foot. That same type of integration would be generous to the Atlas pilots in a UPS buyout.

In order to make sure that the sale went through, the TWA guys waived all of their contractual rights and laid themsekves open to a buggering by the APA. They made that call on their own, ALPA didn't do it for them. They probably had no other real choice in actuality.

There really is never any precedent in these things. Each side makes their own case based on what will work out the best for them. If they can't figure something out, the arbitrator will figure it out for them.

How long has the senior ATLAS guy been there?

The arbitrator would also take into account that most current Atlas pilots are trying to come here before any buyout at the BOTTOM of our seniority list.

Year End 2006 In Millions
UPS-Total Cash Flow From Operating Activities 5,589,000
Atlas-Total Cash Flow From Operating Activities 146,659

UPS-Net Income 4,202,000
Atlas-Net Income 59,781

UPS-Total Current Assets 9,377,000
Atlas-Total Current Assets 463,879

I really don't see how Atlas plans on paying for the new 747-800 with current income and they do not show the growth in numbers like UPS and FedEx.

They have over 600 pilots.. We would not need the pilots if we buy the 747-400's that they own and the order for the 747-8.

They can keep the leased 747-400's and send them over to Polar.

I'm sure that this argument would be made by the IPA's lawyer, but you have no idea what an arbitrator would do with that information. They do as they please. Anyway, this is all putting the cart way in front of the horse at this juncture

I know, but it's fun to speculate. And besides, Hopefully if this does go down, UPS would just buy the assets and not take the employees.

The way i see it, employees are assets, therefore they should have a job if they are bought out. Not cool leaving people on the street without a job.

UPS has a bad history of this (Challenge Air). In this case though, we would need the pilots. No way we would be able to train 600 replacements in the year that our contract allows them to operate a purchased airline seperatly.

this sounds exciting i bet atlas guys are praying to get bought out then. kind of funny to think "man i wish ups would buy us and take us in!"

That's the only part of your post that is true. We were told, waive scope or we will do it for you in court using a 1159 proviso of the BK. The reason AMR bankrupted TWA was to eject Uncle Carl and dissolve our contracts.

We were promised by Con Carty that by waiving scope we'd get a "better deal"...so much for those apples.

When the day is done and Happy Hour ends, it would not have made a bit a difference if we waived scope or had a judge waive it for us days later. Just my opinion from actually being there. Personally, I would have fought it to the bitter end, but it would have been a futile fight in the court system.

Really not sure how the whole TWA thing relates to UPS and Atlas, quite frankly. I think a better barometer would be Polar and Atlas.

Just my humble opinion.

FF

A lot of good folks over at Atlas. Hate to see the pilots of Big Brown get the same reputation as the pilots over at American when it comes to mergers.

UPS and Atlas ?????
 

Let's see how long this thread goes, the UPS rumor is a new one to me. When I started at Atlas 9 years ago, FedEx was the airline interested in buying us.

Unrelated News
 

Atlas Air, Inc. Wins Air Force One Training Contract
Monday October 8, 8:45 am ET Atlas to Provide Training for Air Force One Pilots and Flight Engineers under a Five-Year Contract
PURCHASE, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (AAWW) (Nasdaq: AAWW - News), a leading provider of global air cargo services, today announced that its subsidiary, Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas), has been awarded a five-year contract from the U.S. Air Force to provide flight training for the Air Force pilots and flight engineers who fly the President's aircraft, Air Force One.


William J. Flynn, President and Chief Executive Officer of AAWW, said, "We are excited that the Air Force has selected our state-of-the art training facilities and services for training the elite group of Air Force pilots and flight engineers appointed to fly Air Force One. As the largest operator of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft, Atlas is an established leader in the worldwide cargo industry and a major provider of air freight lift to the military. This exclusive contract further recognizes the commitment and quality that Atlas provides in everything we do."

All training will take place at the Atlas Air Training Center in Miami, Fla., and will cover the full spectrum of ground school and simulator training necessary to fully qualify these crew members to fly Air Force One, a Boeing 747-200 aircraft. Atlas will also provide annual recurrent training, and additional simulator time as requested by the Air Force.
Mr. Flynn added, "This is an accomplishment for our company and something about which all of our employees can be very proud."

About Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.:
AAWW is the parent company of Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas) and the majority shareholder of Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar). Through Atlas and Polar, AAWW operates the world's largest fleet of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft.

Atlas and Polar offer a range of air cargo services that include ACMI aircraft leasing - in which customers receive a dedicated aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance on a long-term lease basis - cargo charters, military charters, scheduled air cargo service, and dry-leasing of aircraft.
AAWW's press releases, SEC filings and other information can be accessed through the Company's home page, www.atlasair.com.

Unfortunately, that's not the way UPS sees it. Probably the best the Atlas guys could look forward to is some type of preferential interview.

UPS has the contract to train USAF C-32 (757) pilots. So this is another natural fit.

UPS management has all the say in any forthcoming deal. Since you are junior here, would you want those Atlas guys to come in ahead of you knowing that most of them want a job here anyway buyout or not, and are willing to come here at the bottom of the seniority list as a newhire?

FBW,
Do you work for UPS or Atlas? Granted the work environment at Atlas is not the same as UPS, but it does not mean that EVERYONE at Atlas wants to jump ship to UPS. Its not like Atlas is in bankruptcy and NEEDs someone to rescue them.

Great , first trying to get managment crews integerated and then the atlas guys. Woooooheee, I better not get in any trouble for a while since all of our lawyers will be busy for sometime to come.

Why would we need the 600 pilots? Ups has no interest in the 747-200's and I don't think they would want all the leased AC at once.

If UPS Management has all the say in a proposed deal, how would anyone of us know how they would integrate them ?? Are there any high ranking management pilot amongst us that are in "the know" ???


Will the Challenge Air Cargo serve as the template ? It doesn't have to be.
Case in point, American Airlines gave the AirCal pilots date-of-hire during one merger and steamrolled Reno and TWA in others.

Is UPS in a phase of growth using the same type aircraft that Atlas currently operates. Could UPS use a NYC base, a Stanstead base, and military contracts ? Atlas has a 747 training facility in Miami. Why scuttle their employees that have thousands of hours in the 747-400 when we are just now getting on our feet with the program. One of the deficiencies right now is massive new hire hiring and limited training facilities. Just my humble opinion, but Atlas's assets and employees offer us more than just the assets.

I for one don't know how an Atlas pilot group would be integrated, but hopefuly it would be better than YOUR proposal of take the planes and scuttle the employees. In my opinion, purchasing their assets and possibly their delivery slots for the El Ocho does not HAVE to have a detrimental effect on our career progression. Nothing says their pilots have to be slotted ahead of anyone. However, one thing is for sure: The airplanes, the new crew bases and cargo contracts will come under our roof.

Part of the reason the industry is on the state it is based on management's ability to divide us and conquer. Going around snubbing other pilots groups "because we can" only serves to facillitate this management goal.

And no, this isn't my first airline or first merger.



FF

Good point on the numbers. You are right about the classics. I wouldn't be surprised to see UPS take a large number of -400's of the course of a year. I'm flying with an ex atlas guy now who thinks that they have close to a thousand guys.

Just for background, we have all the normal bells and whistles for a merger in the contract, but one thing that I find unusual is that if we come to a negotiated settlement or a friendly agreement with the other pilot group, the company retains the right to object and send it to an arbitration.

Very easy divide and conquer opportunity. A no-brainer decision from management.

I haven't been in this industry but 7 years. The one thing that I decided to do so that I could sleep at night was to not try and figure this industry out. Some people love to debate all the angles and that is fine. For those of you already losing sleep over this just relax. You can't control these types of things so just deal with them as they arise.

I don't want UPS to buy anyone. I want them to grow internally. But if they do buy someone, I'm going to do what I can to prevent some bottom feeder ACMI getting "merged" on my seniority list. Heck, most of them are trying to get on here anyway at the bottom of the list. Knowing UPS, I could see them giving Atlas "preferential" interviews and those that make it getting put at the bottom of the seniority list where they belong.

You have inspired my new avatar. "what, me worry?"

Bottom feeder, Yor seniority list. How did you end up being so f...ing great, and may i ask you where you came from or you were always so privilaged to be talking down to other pilot groups. Pathetic