Inquiry re "Fatigue Letter" of 10/10/07 w/ response
11-01-2007, 09:31 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 118
Inquiry re "Fatigue Letter" of 10/10/07 w/ response
The following was sent to Capt. Mxxxxx pursuant to his "Fatigue Letter" of 10/10/07. Pertinent portions of his response follow. It was suggested that perhaps other pilots who are considering bidding HKG might need this information.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Capt. Mxxxxx:
Sir, in light of the very salient points and issues raised in your newsletter dealing with pilot fatigue, I must ask if these issues were considered during the recent hash-up of the LOA? It has been realistically calculated that a pilot flying out of HKG will need to wake up at 9:00 pm to make a midnight pick-up at the "meeting point" for a 3:00 a.m. showtime in CAN, conservatively assuming that the meeting point is on HKG island. The housing allowance will not allow most people to live much closer in than Discovery Bay, which has ferries to HKG Island; if the meeting point is in Kowloon, the pilot must take yet another ferry across the harbor from HKG island to Kowloon, then a taxi to the meeting point. This, of course, would necessitate revising the pilot's wake-up time to even earlier than 9:00 pm, perhaps to 8:00 pm.
Was this ever taken into account? The presumed 3-hour taxi ride to CAN has been chuckled at by our HKG hotel front desk staff as being entirely unrealistic. "Plan on 4 to 4-1/2 hours, easily", is what we've been told.
Will the union stand behind any HKG crew that has an accident/incident where fatigue is an issue, considering that this travel situation was worked out by our Negotiating Committee? It appears to me to present a conflict of interest -- if the pilot is defended, it's a repudiation of the travel terms worked out by the Union; if the pilot is not defended, it is a material breach of the union's duty to the pilot. I think this conflict of interest in and of itself presents a legal issue.
It has also been noted that the van travel time may prove to be of such duration that legality issues arise with respect to duty times, thereby playing havoc with the departure schedule. In that case, obviously, the travel time would be shortened by moving the meeting point farther away from downtown and closer to the border, thereby lengthening the travel time from a crewmember's house to the meeting point. This would, of course, necessitate a further revision of the pilot's wake-up time, to a time even earlier than the previously-revised 8:00 pm.
Were any of these issues considered? If so, I would appreciate an explanation as to the solutions that have been proposed to these problems.
Thank you in advance for your time. I look forward to your response before the bidding closes.
Respectfully submitted
*****
*****
One of the goals the negotiating Committee had when crafting the FDA LOA was to give pilots the option of not having to live in or near Guangzhou. As you know, this was accomplished by getting the company to agree to establish the domicile in HKG and make all trips originate there for both pay and duty purposes. There is not a provision for the company to start pairings from a place other than the domicile.
The realities of living in or around HKG and the attendant transportation issues were acknowledged in negotiations and deemed to be a much better option than establishing the domicile in CAN and having pilots be on their own to make it to the airport. As always, pilots may avail themselves of the contractual provisions regarding fatigue if they feel they cannot safely operate a pairing. As you read in my message of October 10, the MEC takes very seriously both fatigue and the enforcement of the relevant CBA language.
...
Best Regards,
Dxxxx Mxxxxx
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Capt. Mxxxxx:
Sir, in light of the very salient points and issues raised in your newsletter dealing with pilot fatigue, I must ask if these issues were considered during the recent hash-up of the LOA? It has been realistically calculated that a pilot flying out of HKG will need to wake up at 9:00 pm to make a midnight pick-up at the "meeting point" for a 3:00 a.m. showtime in CAN, conservatively assuming that the meeting point is on HKG island. The housing allowance will not allow most people to live much closer in than Discovery Bay, which has ferries to HKG Island; if the meeting point is in Kowloon, the pilot must take yet another ferry across the harbor from HKG island to Kowloon, then a taxi to the meeting point. This, of course, would necessitate revising the pilot's wake-up time to even earlier than 9:00 pm, perhaps to 8:00 pm.
Was this ever taken into account? The presumed 3-hour taxi ride to CAN has been chuckled at by our HKG hotel front desk staff as being entirely unrealistic. "Plan on 4 to 4-1/2 hours, easily", is what we've been told.
Will the union stand behind any HKG crew that has an accident/incident where fatigue is an issue, considering that this travel situation was worked out by our Negotiating Committee? It appears to me to present a conflict of interest -- if the pilot is defended, it's a repudiation of the travel terms worked out by the Union; if the pilot is not defended, it is a material breach of the union's duty to the pilot. I think this conflict of interest in and of itself presents a legal issue.
It has also been noted that the van travel time may prove to be of such duration that legality issues arise with respect to duty times, thereby playing havoc with the departure schedule. In that case, obviously, the travel time would be shortened by moving the meeting point farther away from downtown and closer to the border, thereby lengthening the travel time from a crewmember's house to the meeting point. This would, of course, necessitate a further revision of the pilot's wake-up time, to a time even earlier than the previously-revised 8:00 pm.
Were any of these issues considered? If so, I would appreciate an explanation as to the solutions that have been proposed to these problems.
Thank you in advance for your time. I look forward to your response before the bidding closes.
Respectfully submitted
*****
*****
One of the goals the negotiating Committee had when crafting the FDA LOA was to give pilots the option of not having to live in or near Guangzhou. As you know, this was accomplished by getting the company to agree to establish the domicile in HKG and make all trips originate there for both pay and duty purposes. There is not a provision for the company to start pairings from a place other than the domicile.
The realities of living in or around HKG and the attendant transportation issues were acknowledged in negotiations and deemed to be a much better option than establishing the domicile in CAN and having pilots be on their own to make it to the airport. As always, pilots may avail themselves of the contractual provisions regarding fatigue if they feel they cannot safely operate a pairing. As you read in my message of October 10, the MEC takes very seriously both fatigue and the enforcement of the relevant CBA language.
...
Best Regards,
Dxxxx Mxxxxx
Last edited by BonesF15; 11-01-2007 at 09:39 PM. Reason: posting names
11-01-2007, 10:40 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 1,804
Hey HerkyBird,
I like the points you bring up, however I have a few problems yet again with one of your posts.
If you feel it necessary to print Derek Martin's name, why not post his entire response to your letter instead of just the 'pertinent portions'.
Also if you feel it necessary to post his name, why do you not post yours?
I like the points you bring up, however I have a few problems yet again with one of your posts.
If you feel it necessary to print Derek Martin's name, why not post his entire response to your letter instead of just the 'pertinent portions'.
Also if you feel it necessary to post his name, why do you not post yours?
11-01-2007, 10:56 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I'm not here to defend Herky...and the previous "SCAB" comment made was out of bounds.
However....DM is Vice chairman. I think comments made by MEC leaders, especially those that supported the LOA, need to be heard. The concerns about taking his comments out of context, however is entirely valid. You probably need to post the WHOLE response, then in your post point out which if any parts of the response are a concern to you. That way the intent of the message is not lost or taken out of the context. Just my suggestion...
Herky--you'll go a LOT farther if you can eat a little crow and apologize/retract that S word you threw around. You don't owe me anything, but you'll have more a voice with those listening if you can work with them a bit.
However....DM is Vice chairman. I think comments made by MEC leaders, especially those that supported the LOA, need to be heard. The concerns about taking his comments out of context, however is entirely valid. You probably need to post the WHOLE response, then in your post point out which if any parts of the response are a concern to you. That way the intent of the message is not lost or taken out of the context. Just my suggestion...
Herky--you'll go a LOT farther if you can eat a little crow and apologize/retract that S word you threw around. You don't owe me anything, but you'll have more a voice with those listening if you can work with them a bit.
11-01-2007, 11:39 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Captain Nathan Brittles: You're not quite "Army" yet, miss... or you'd know never to apologize... it's a sign of weakness.
11-01-2007, 11:13 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by HerkyBird
One of the goals the negotiating Committee had when crafting the FDA LOA was to give pilots the option of not having to live in or near Guangzhou. As you know, this was accomplished by getting the company to agree to establish the domicile in HKG and make all trips originate there for both pay and duty purposes. There is not a provision for the company to start pairings from a place other than the domicile.
The realities of living in or around HKG and the attendant transportation issues were acknowledged in negotiations and deemed to be a much better option than establishing the domicile in CAN and having pilots be on their own to make it to the airport. As always, pilots may avail themselves of the contractual provisions regarding fatigue if they feel they cannot safely operate a pairing. As you read in my message of October 10, the MEC takes very seriously both fatigue and the enforcement of the relevant CBA language.
...
Best Regards,
Dxxxx Mxxxxx
The realities of living in or around HKG and the attendant transportation issues were acknowledged in negotiations and deemed to be a much better option than establishing the domicile in CAN and having pilots be on their own to make it to the airport. As always, pilots may avail themselves of the contractual provisions regarding fatigue if they feel they cannot safely operate a pairing. As you read in my message of October 10, the MEC takes very seriously both fatigue and the enforcement of the relevant CBA language.
...
Best Regards,
Dxxxx Mxxxxx
I just don't understand how we are supposed to bid either of these FDA's when there are so many unknowns still unanswered...ie. HKG pick up location??? IMHO, you are creating a lot of extra headaches and stress for yourself for little to no extra compensation. You know the company is NOT going to go out of their way to help, your on your own getting over there and established.
11-02-2007, 02:12 AM
#7
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by PurpleTail
. You know the company is NOT going to go out of their way to help, your on your own getting over there and established.
Last edited by skypine27; 11-02-2007 at 02:47 AM.
11-03-2007, 06:13 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by BonesF15
No names please...
Waaaaay senior dude --- John Wayne played him in that 1949 movie about the US Cavalry.
Check on the link that was provided in the post
