Training Letter is out
 

Go to VIPS-Standing Bid-Training Letter. Just came out this PM.

757 for MEM slots about a year out. Probably going to be another bid before then (I think.....)

If the 757 dates stay on schedule you can call me a monkey's uncle.

Hey guys,
Does the training letter specify dates for the Airbus and the 757?
So the 757 training dates are about 12 months from now?
Thanks, just trying to guess/speculate when they would hire for HKG/CDG.

They aren't going to hire for HKG/CDG -- sorry -- STV will keep that from happening

ictflyer,
It seems that I've read that the company posted, before the bid closing, that they were not going to STV for long periods of time, and that HKG/CDG vacancies would be filled by new-hires. It was posted on here a few times.
Have you heard something different?

Cloud: here is the training letter (sanitized) for the 75:

Start Date Seat Bid Old seat Finish Date

3MAR08 Initial M57F 0703 M27S 02MAY08

Trans. M57C 0703 M27C 02MAY08
0703 M11C 02MAY08

M57F 0703 M27F 02MAY08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

17MAR08 Initial C57C 0703 M30F 16MAY08

C57F 0703 M27F 16MAY08

Trans. C57C 0703 A11C 16MAY08

C57F 0703 M30C 16MAY08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

31MAR08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 30MAY08

C57F 0703 M11F 30MAY08
0703 M30F 30MAY08

Trans. C57C 0703 M30C 30MAY08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

14APR08 Initial C57C 0703 M10F 13JUN08
Trans. 0703 M27C 13JUN08

C57F 0703 S30F 13JUN08
0703 M30F 13JUN08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

28APR08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 27JUN08
Trans. 0703 M30C 27JUN08

C57F 0703 M27S 27JUN08
0703 M30F 27JUN08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

12MAY08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 11JUL08
0703 M11F 11JUL08

Trans. C57F 0703 M27S 11JUL08
0703 M27F 11JUL08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

26MAY08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 25JUL08
Trans. 0703 M27C 25JUL08

C57F 0703 M27F 25JUL08
0703 A11F 25JUL08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

09JUN08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 08AUG08

C57F 0703 M27S 08AUG08

Trans. C57C 0703 A11C 08AUG08

C57F 0707 A11F 08AUG08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

23JUN08 Initial C57C 0703 M10F 22AUG08
0703 M30F 22AUG08
0703 L11F 22AUG08

C57F 0703 M27S 22AUG08
0703 M27S 22AUG08
0703 M27S 22AUG08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

07JUL08 Initial C57C 0703 M30F 05SEP08
0703 S30F 05SEP08

C57F 0703 M27S 05SEP08
0703 M27S 05SEP08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

21JUL08 Initial C57C 0703 M30F 19SEP08
0703 L11F 19SEP08

C57F 0703 M27S 19SEP08
0703 M27S 19SEP08
0703 M27S 19SEP08

Trans. C57C 0703 M27C 19SEP08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

04AUG08 Initial C57C 0703 M11F 03OCT08
0703 A11F 03OCT08

C57F 0703 S30F 03OCT08
Trans. 0703 S30F 03OCT08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

18AUG08 Initial C57C 0703 S30F 17OCT08
0703 M30F 17OCT08
0703 M30F 17OCT08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

08SEP08 Initial C57C 0703 M10F 07NOV08
0703 M11F 07NOV08
Trans. 0703 M27S 07NOV08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

22SEP08 Initial C57C FLX M30F 21NOV08
0703 S30F 21NOV08
0703 A11F 21NOV08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

06OCT08 Initial C57C 0703 S30F 05DEC08
0703 M11F 05DEC08
Trans. 0703 M27C 05DEC08
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

20OCT08 Initial C57C 0703 M30F 19DEC08
0703 M11F 19DEC08

M57F 0703 M10S 19DEC08

Trans. M57C 0703 M30F 19DEC08

Thanks Bohica, appreciate the post.
Since crews are already trained in the Airbus, they won't post a training letter, is that correct?
Will they post a 'transfer date' letter?

Quick synopsis:

According to the training letter, there are 2 MEM crews going through 75 school starting 3 Mar and ending on 2 May. 2 weeks later and every 2 weeks for quite a while (through 4 Aug,) 2 CDG crews start training. After that, it becomes 3 CDG Capts per class through Oct 08, when the rest of the MEM crews start going through training.

The first HKG A300 crews start training at the end of Jan. The last FO who actually has to go through training (as opposed to a base transfer) starts in Mar. HKG Capts continue training through the year. The Subic Bay A300 FOs who elected HKG transfer in Dec, when Subic officially closes and HKG opens.

Using this info, you can speculate on if and when they hire for FO slots for the FDAs.

No, there is a training letter for the transfers and the training. Not all of the Bus guys are transferring. I'm working on the Bus letter right now.

Here is the sanitized Bus (HK portion only) training letter. Same format:

28JAN08 Initial H30F 0703 M27F 06APR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

04FEB08 Initial H30F 0703 M27S 13APR08

Trans. H30C 0703 M11C 13APR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

20APR08 Initial H30F 0703 M27F 20APR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

25FEB08 Initial H30F 0703 M27S 04MAY08

Upgrade H30C 0703 M30F 12APR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

03MAR08 Lateral H30C 0703 M30C 03MAR08
0703 M30C 03MAR08
0703 S30C 03MAR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

10MAR08 Initial H30C 0703 M11F 18MAY08

H30F 0703 M27S 18MAY08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

17MAR08 Initial H30C 0703 A11F 25MAY08

H30F 0703 M27S 25MAY08

Trans. H30C 0703 M27C 25MAY08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

24MAR08 Initial H30F 0703 M27S 01JUN08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

07APR08 Initial H30C 0703 M11F 15JUN08

Lateral H30C 0703 S30C 07APR08
FLX M30C 07APR08
0703 S30C 07APR08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

21APR08 Initial H30C 0703 A11F 29JUN08

__________________________________________________ _____________________

05MAY08 Lateral H30C 0703 S30C 05MAY08
0703 S30C 05MAY08
0703 M30C 05MAY08
0703 M30C 05MAY08
__________________________________________________ _____________________
H30C 0703 S30F 28JUN08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

19MAY08 Initial H30C 0703 A11F 27JUL08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

26MAY08 Initial H30C 0703 A11F 03AUG08

H30C 0703 M30F 12JUL08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

02JUN08 Trans. H30C 0703 M10C 02JUN08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

09JUN08 Initial H30C 0703 A11F 17AUG08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

16JUN08 Initial H30C 0703 M11F 24AUG08
0703 M11F 24AUG08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

23JUN08 Initial H30C 0703 M11F 31AUG08
0703 M11F 31AUG08
__________________________________________________ _____________________
21JUL08 Upgrade H30C 0703 S30F 06SEP08
0703 S30F 06SEP08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

04AUG08 Upgrade H30C 0703 S30F 20SEP08
0703 S30F 20SEP08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

18AUG08 Upgrade H30C 0703 S30F 04OCT08
0703 S30F 04OCT08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

01SEP08 Upgrade H30C 0703 S30F 18OCT08
0703 S30F 18OCT08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

22SEP08 Upgrade H30C 0703 M30F 08NOV08
0703 S30F 08NOV08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

27OCT08 Lateral H30C 0703 S30C 27OCT08
0703 S30C 27OCT08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

01DEC08 Lateral H30C 0703 S30C 01DEC08
0703 S30C 01DEC08
0703 S30C 01DEC08
0703 S30C 01DEC08

H30F 0703 S30F 01DEC08
0703 S30F 01DEC08
__________________________________________________ _____________________

29DEC08 Lateral H30C 0703 S30C 29DEC08
0703 S30C 29DEC08
0703 S30C 29DEC08

H30F 0703 S30F 29DEC08

Some of the formatting got dumped and a couple of start dates, but I think you can get the idea of when guys are going.

I definitely get the idea. Thanks again for putting the time into formatting and posting the letter.
Now... time to speculate and to get the Rosetta Stone for both Mandarin and French!

No problem, I hope it helps and that you, and the rest of the poolies, get the call soon.

While that is certainly possible, here is a quote from the LOA question and answer section on the company website:

Regarding HKG first officer positions: Since there are only 11 people bidding this position, will they have the first 11 seniority spots in bidding their monthly schedules, or will the presumably STV crewmembers who are more senior get to bid as well?

Monthly bids will always be in seniority order; however, it is anticipated that new hires will fill these positions with minimal STV participation.






Time will tell what the company actually does to fill these slots.

Somewhere in the time between the LOA vote and implementation the union changed their tune. At the meetings on voting, the word was "it won't be that bad....its not a bad deal.....they will go senior anyway....blah blah blah..."

After the vote and the first practice bid, the union made mention of the fact STVs were NOT for manning shortfalls. It appears the company is indicating the same thing. Regardless of who made the call or how it happened, I'm glad. I hope that is in fact the case, and wish both the poolies and the A300 bottom feeders the best of luck.

Like I said--the poor ACP who has to listen to 1000 sob stories as guys slip and dodge STVs was going to be a miserable, tired guy. Ditto the union folks who got pulled into the fray. And the guy/gal sent--man--even more angst and irritation. Maybe all of that mess can be avoided...

Albie,

When do you think they will start calling the Poolies for HKG?

Thanks

Whale...

If that was aimed at me, I never said anything different. As mentioned, a brief synopsis of all that hard to decifer stuff (these forums never allow for good formatting) that the training lists turned into.

No KHG FOs entering training after Mar 24, unless I missed some. The few Subic guys transferring to HKG FO do so in Dec.

So, to answer Whale's question, probably no newhires for HKG until mid to late summer.

727pilot,
What would your guess be about new-hires for CDG?
Would the training letter mean no new-hires until about a year from now because of the crews going into training every two weeks starting in March?
At that training rate, it doesn't seem STV would even be possible in the 757, which would be good for all.

CS,
Everything you read in this thread is pure speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.

A few facts and opinions that will hopefully help you make this decision:

The FDA FO seats did not get filled, but.....

1. FDX is very fat in every seat.
2. FDX does not want another 40-50 newhires to man FDA's, especially in lieu of the Age 60 debacle.
3. Age 60 is a huge problem here. We are so fat in SO seats right now due to the retreads waiting to hear what happens. This hurts everybody, especially those waiting in the pool.
4. After peak, FDX is planning to move some airplanes in early MX (meaning park airplanes).
5. Domestic growth is very flat. Mgrs are waiting to see what kind of numbers peak brings. Early projections are saying that we are going to have a record peak, but throw in a weather event or two, and that could change drastically.
6. The training letter shows the last HKG FO to start training on 24mar08 with a projected finish of 01jun08. The company is planning on a cleanup bid (possible addition of md11/10 domicile in HKG) in Jan or Feb to see if the FO seats get filled.
7. This is a different company now as compared to 5-10 years ago. The company is running circles around the union and doing what they want to save money.
8. The STV provision of the LOA is looming large now, because they can use that as a stop gap measure between the June activation of the last FO and the 1st transfer date of a Subic FO on 1dec08. IMO, STV's are going to be used to seed the system and transition from Subic to HKG, both from a personnel and flying perspective.

So take this for what it's worth, but in my estimation, I wouldn't plan on poolies getting called anytime soon. There are currently too many unknowns right now. Sorry for the buzzkill.

75 CDG newhires gets tricky, because you have to factor in aircraft aquisition. There will only be 5 completed 75s on property by August, with about 1 per month after that. Given that 1 or 2 jets will probably stay in MEM initially for IOE and proving runs, I don't see the CDG base really getting going until next fall. I would think late summer or fall for possible newhires, but again, that's just my $0.02 worth. They would be able to slip in 3 newhires with the 3 CDG Capts in the late Aug, Sep, and Oct classes. Preceeded by 1 week of Basic Indoc, that means August for newbies.

As you mentioned, with only a couple MEM crews, STV is pretty much an impossibility for a while, but given the slow startup in CDG, it probably won't be needed for a while. Again, IMHO.

Bluejuice,
Thanks for the info. Yeah, it seems like things are slowing down across the industry. No buzzkill really. I think the poolies are just trying to stay as informed as possible with all the different variables affecting the decision-making of the company. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months.

I'm on MLA and avoiding some of this carnage (involuntary I might add), but it seems to me that the company is crushing us right now. All I see as an non-current-flyer is:

1. My health care bill going up $100/mo
2. My buds pay rates going up but BLG down to 68 hrs or so
....those two kill the pay raise alone
3. STV
4. Fat in every seat
5. Company with no clue about age 65...ditto with Union
6. Massively decreasing lines in the 727 bidpack, not sure about others
7. Optimizer killing double D/H's in hometowns...think this is called city purity


Seems to me we're getting our ass handed to us as a pilot group. I'm just sayin......

Bluejuice,

Do you know for sure that there will be a cleanup bid in Jan or Feb? Why would this be necessary? Just curious. Thanks

Based on past experience, what's the likelihood training dates get "moved forward or backward" for our established aircraft --- i.e. 727, A300, MD-11?

Are moves "backward" more likely then "forward"?

Can the company unilaterally move your training date to conflict with your vacation?

If so, any recourse?

Mahalo

In my limited experience:

They can move you backward all they want but forward might be different.. I was called 3 times to take an earlier bus date but said no I would rather go on time... Then they slid me back a week and went a week after the original... Just my euros worth which ain't even worth as much in U.S.

727: My post was simply an attempt to answer Cloud's question above.

I had upgrade training 2 years ago and it was moved several times by the company. No recourse. They also solicited volunteers to take training on short notice when the plan changed. Those moves forward were voluntary, they have to give you one bid month's notice (basically) before they make you start due to bidding considerations. The moves backward were unilateral.

If you lose your vacation you can move to another month if you could have held it, or you can sell it back. There is a button under vacation in VIPS to reschedule a vacation lost due to training.

The company definitely holds all the cards on training dates. That is one reason why a lot of guys delay moving up. You lose control of your life for about a year when you bid for training.

I can give you a "for instance." Last spring, a crewmember broke his leg. While he called in sick to VIPS, he never informed the Training Dept, where he was scheduled to go for an A300 class the next month. When he didn't show, the schedulers spent most of the day on the phone, offering the class to every upcoming student in that seat. Big Gotcha - Everyone who said no was waiving passover pay, just like a training swap. They finally got someone very junior to take the class and he upgraded way ahead of his peers.

Otherwise, I agree with all the rest on vacation and such.