Can the company cancel part of a bid?
 

I understand the company can cancel a bid, but how can they cancel part of a bid since it screws with seniority.
Example. and it is happening.

Lets say I'm a senior 727 FO and on the bid my first choice was ANC MD11 FO and my second choice was HKG CA. We'll I held ANC MD11 FO and someone junior to me got the HKG CA (far enough). Now the company has cancelled part of the bid and I'm stuck on the 727 and a junior person got HKG CA. Since the company is picking parts of the bid to cancel I get screwed. If they rebid the entire bid I could hold HKG CA.

You guys are much better with the contract than me. Does it say they can cancel part of a bid. I thought seniority was king.

Yes they can:

Section 24.E.4

The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date. A pilot whose award/assignment is canceled may either remain in his current crew position, or exercise his seniority for an award or a vacancy posting that occurred between the date his crew position was awarded and the date it was canceled. He shall be eligible to receive passover pay:

Sounds like you will be able to hold HKG CA on this bid. Pack your bags!!!!

So does that mean that anyone whose bid was canceled can now take anyones bid who was junior to them that had a bid that was not canceled?

Discussion on another board about this--concensus is what the company is doing is legal. MEC input was request to not cancel the bid, but when you run the numbers, moving guys from back seat to left seat actually creates few training cycles (i.e. money) than the standard musical chairs where everyone moves up a seat. Someone smarter than me ran numbers and said something about 266 or so training cycles verses 436.

My anger is simply that the retro policy was sold as having "minimal impact", and was done without a crew force mandate. Its here--we'll deal with the fallout--but I would argue the impact on just about all of us is far from minimal.

Water under the bridge. Time to work on issues we can have an impact on. This one is done.

Kids doing your homework again Albie? They can help you with the FMS stuff too when you decide to leave the Boeing. :D

Cheap shot I know. I'll refer myself to Pro-stan and fill out a work sheet on myself.

If they cancel in reverse seniority order, wouldn't the Jr. pilot's bid be canceled too? I'm guessing that your contract has the ability to place a contingency bid (i.e. activate if you can hold a certain percentile relative fleet/seat seniority on that bid)? If not it doesn't sound like a cancellation in reverse seniority order.

From the sidelines.....:p

Just get me a bus slot and we'll call it even...:p

I got my Bose X's two years ago. I can hang a while if I have to...

If I'm reading this correctly, you will get the Captain's slot, and also be eligible for passover pay when the guy junior to you gets activated.

That sound right to the experts here?

Nope it has to be a vacancy posting since your bid award not the same one as your bid award.

FDXLAG, Esquire....:D

Wish I could remember the Animal House quote about Prelaw and Premed. Some brain cells don't work sober.

also, don't forget:

Dean Vernon Wormer and Albie (2008)

Guess the 'between' is not inclusive of that bid, huh. That kinda sucks for the more senior guy in the scenario presented.

The good news, the way I read it. You could now bid Hong Kong Capt and if that training took place after someone Jr to you goes to Alaska you start getting wide body pay while you wait to go to training. Provided you keep Alaska on your standing bid. But I was a Criminal Justice Major at a party school.

Then the way I read the contract, you rate passover pay when that jr guy checks out in HKG.........as long as you had HKG CAPT as a 2nd or third choice.

Too bad for me I didn't bid HK Capt fourth. Your reading could get expensive for fred, I like it.

Well, if they pay passover that would be OK, but I'm not sure it will work that way. I was hoping someone on here would know for sure.

Thanks

Man I did a year on the Bus.... never again. I wanted to move to CDG and fly the other light twin but a bunch of knuckleheads voted yes on the LOA and now I can't.
I just visit HKG now. Don't think living there (in a box) would be any fun.

I'm just a simple sea lawyer but it seems clear to me that if a Pilot just lost his Bid award on 07-03 but had HKG or CDG as a subsequent choice to his Lost Bid award, he/she will rate passover pay, but you better be willing to go to HKG or CDG on a subsequent Bid.
Let's look at Sec 24 E 4 Cancellation of Awards :mad:

Section 24. E. 4.

A. The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date. A pilot whose award/assignment is canceled may either remain in his current crew position, or exercise his seniority for an award or a vacancy posting that occurred between the date his crew position was awarded and the date it was canceled. He shall be eligible to receive passover pay if:
i.a junior pilot is activated in a crew position pursuant to the same or any subsequent posting and the rate of pay for that crew position is higher than the rate of pay for the current crew position of the pilot whose award has been canceled; and
ii. the standing bid of the pilot whose award has been canceled included the crew position in which the junior pilot has been activated as a preference higher than his current crew position.
b.A pilot’s entitlement to passover pay pursuant to Section 24.E.4.a. (above), shall continue until the earlier of:
i.the affected pilot’s subsequent activation in a crew position with a rate of pay equal to or higher than his passover rate of pay; or
ii.the closing date of a subsequent posting meeting the following criteria:

(a) the posting contains a permanent vacancy in the crew position with respect to which the affected pilot is receiving passover pay; and
(b) the pilot did not have that crew position on his standing bid; and
(c) the pilot would have been awarded that crew position had he included that crew position on his standing bid.

I agree.

Because the company awarded a position that piloted wanted to a junior pilot, without giving him the opportunity to fairly bid on it.

The company is effectively pulling a "bait and switch" manuever by only cancelling a portion of the awards on the bid and not rebidding the whole thing.

The union lawyers needs to look at this hard --- very, very hard.

Actually, looks to me like you would not have to go there on the next bid. You remove that HKG/CDG choice on your standing bid preference - and passover pay stops when that subsequent bid closes.

Wait. If you could not actually hold it (even though you no longer have it on your standing bid), passover continues? If I'm reading that right, looks to me like A. b. ii. (c) just has become a bunch of guys best friend, and a reason to hope that the LOA really gets better quickly.

Hmmm, maybe agree to pay a more senior guy sitting on the fence part of your passover pay (if you get it) to get him to go ahead and bid it...??? ;)

If you take off the seat choice you are getting passover for before you actually get to the seat, I believe you risk giving back all your previous passover payments.


That's one reason why the 757 trng guys quit. None was ready to pay back all that passover.

The only problem with your assesment is that in order to begin receiving the JR crew member that got the Capt award in HKG or CDG passover pay in this case must Check out first which is the triggering event (not the actual award itself).

BID 08-01 is now out and will close 16 FEB. Since the Jr Crew probably won't begin training for several months from now or probably not before 08-01 closes, there is a very short window, ans which is why the company added 3 extra CDG and HKG Capts. The optimum scenario for passover pay purposes would be for the company cancel what they did and not have another bid for a long time. Good for passover pay purposes, bad for everything else.

Agree with that - did not say anything differently (at least I think I did not).

What I'm reading is;

1) If the guy that bid 1) MEM 757 Capt, and 2) CDG 757 Capt in 0703 and was awarded his first choice, and then it was subsequently canceled, AND someone junior to him received CDG 757, he is eligible for passover pay that starts when you indicated above.

2) If he now keeps his standing bid the same, and cannot hold CDG 757 when bid 0801 closes (a distinct possibility with the regulated age change), his passover continues until..... well...I believe until he activates into a similar (or same) pay position in either 0801, or a later bid. Even if he is awarded MEM 757 Capt.

I think I was wrong earlier. I believe that he would have to keep the CDG Capt choice on his standing bid in the relative position.

4am analysis - the guy should be cheering that those newly eligible to bid and senior to him like wine and croissants for breakfast, if he wants to continue receiving passover pay while staying in his same current position.

Look correct?

what about the question of only cnxing in reverse seniority order? how can they cnx the non-fda, more senior portion regardless of any passover pay iaw the CBA?

delete delete

I believe we are in agreement ;)

legal language
 

My head is spinning after reading the last few posts.

The legal-ese in which our contract is written is above my head.

Do we have legal to english interpretations from ALPA lawyers on this?

WOW!, Maybe alpa should actually communicte with us....but no such luck...maybe we can get a town hall meeting email.......or another email about crap commuters don't care about.

IF passover is due for guys who had their awards canceled, how hard do you think our MEC and National are going to fight the company to get them to pay it? They haven't exactly been very aggressive lately in extracting passover pay from the company for the junior guys. I hope that maybe in an effort to save at least some face in this whole debacle the MEC will go to the mat to get any penny that might be due to somebody who had their award canceled so the over 60 guys can extract more gain at the junior half of the seniority list's expense.

FJ

Well, it seems to me that it is clearly in our CBA. In black and white.

So, we may have to wait for the crack team of lawyers to tell us what it really says, and what was really meant, and what the intent was.

This "passover pay" question is another good one for tonight's hub turn meeting.

...someone, please ask!

[quote=Falconjet;294946]IF passover is due for guys who had their awards canceled, how hard do you think our MEC and National are going to fight the company to get them to pay it?

Uh, OK, I'll bite. Zip, zero, nada, nyet, nein, nothing, none, no chance. Unless of course, it somehow fits into DW's agenda then the union coffers are wide open. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, try to fool me 25 times, you're DW.

[QUOTE=AerisArmis;295616]Stop holding back and tell us what you really think. Who do you trust more DW or PC?

[quote=R1200RT;295622]You mean to tell the truth? DW or PC? To do what's best for the crew force? DW or PC? Tough call! Are their lips moving?

So maybe THAT'S the reason for all the bushy mustaches! You can't see their lips!