Consider me a doubting Thomas <g>. I don't believe similiar because of the RLA makes it more difficult to negotiate an 'amendable' CBA than an expiring CBA. That automatically gives an edge to management. At our company we have used "professional negotiators". i.e. Hired expert Atty's with expertise in various areas. Brilliant people who improve the language and position for the union. The NC team is made up of the core group of pilots who are in all negotiation sessions and sent to school on negotiations, and the experts as needed, and pilot experts in various committees who deal with the company year round in the trenches (Training, Catering, HIMS, etc). When we negotiate Scope or Pensions for example, we have the "Professional Negotiator" take the front seat with the pilot negotiators aboard. The challenge is, negotiations take years. drawn out, and management sits with there atty's and labor folks and wait till your experts (area of expertise professional negotiator)are gone, attemp to change a few 'minor details' on a trade when you are talking about Scheduling, The nuances are tremendous. Union now faced with a choice, make the 'trade' for something else they have waited for 19 months for an answer, or attemp to reschedule the expert? Scope atty who can't get there for 3 days (company knows this of course) and face a management team that refuses to discuss the issue further when the expert is at the table. This is intentional because it causes the rest of the union membership to get frustrated at the delays (management ideal set up). Frustrates the NC because of the pressure to get a deal. Why doubting Thomas? Because management knows how to exploit labors frustrations over a several year protracted war regardless of who is negotiating for the pilot group. Professionals negotiators are consultants, etc that create own set of challenges. Very beneficial, but not the golden bullet answer to our pilot dreams. Takes a team, realizing whomever is in Washington (Dems or Repubs) will not support pilot "union" labor because we make to much money and are perceived as not worth the headache of defending.
I favor the mixed team of pilots who have been trained and have a broad experience on the line, core NC committee, "Professional Negotiators", union staff subject experts, grievance committee experts and experts in all the specific articles. Oh, and a unified pilot group which is a wild card because of competing interests within the group which management knows how to exploit as well.
YMMV

I'll take your suggestion to heart and start my research. Hopefully others will put pressure on their Reps to our MEC do their "research" too.

I would agree that we need to educate/reeducate/slap our group of pilots to think and act in a way that will get us something that we should be fighting for. But, being the optimist I am.....it might never happen. No concept of leverage/unity with our bunch!

I've worked with these "lawyers" and they are not very competent! Moreover, as Vagabond said, it would behoove us to hire experienced attorneys who negotiate labor contracts as their chosen field of expertise. BTW, we also have numerous lawyers who are pilots here who could better interpret the proposals and act as go between with the hired guns. That's how it is done in the real world. In-house counsel acts as go between with hired litigator. That's what our company does, and it works. Only in this crazy Airline Business do pilots think they can act as professional lawyers. Lincoln once remarked, "He would be his own lawyer has a fool for a client."

This all would cut into the ALPA "food chain" you realise. This is the real reason we don't do it. It cuts off someone's water.

I consider myself to be a professional pilot. I take pride in what I do and am always trying to improve my abilities. When my toilet is on the fritz, I call a professional plumber. Enough said.
fbh

We are no doubt INTIMIDATED and FEARFUL of the Company. WHY ? Because we allow it so we can get that next paycheck. We have an organization here that boasts Polls, Studies, cites infractions, claims to "take it back", too much rhetoric. The last time I spoke with an officer of the MEC, I was told that FedEx is BIG BUSINESS, nevermind my concerns of SAFTEY, FATIGUE, SCHEDULING issues, etc. With a group of guys SYMPATHETIC and DANCING with the Company, we are never going to get anywhere except possibly holding protest signs and eating lots of hotdogs. So far, I get a shiney magazine, lots of e-mails and meetings, too much talk and not enough meaningful leadership, in return for 1.95% dues. Modern Day Unions, just another rip-off, next to paying taxes.

Ask all the pilot' that have gotten their jobs back through the work of FPA or ALPA. Union dues are worth every penny for job protection and the insurance products alone IMHO. I realize there are problems out there, but do you really think you would be better off as an "at will employee" ? That is a major problem at many airlines, everyone acting as an individual, thinking they know better than everyone else. I compare it to DP's, just because you think the pairing is "better than something else I fly" so you pick it up, you undermine the process and directly affect the unity and effectiveness of a UNION. Simple example that can be extrapolated into a hundred different examples of how we self inflict injuries !

I'm going to have to disagree with you for the most part and agree with Tenn (except for the modern day rip-off remark). While we are better off than being an "at will employee", we have NOT been represented well by our union (scope payments, contract, LOA, age 60,etc). When the union disregards or misrepresents it's members it causes members to disregard the union and kills unity and union effectiveness. If all you think is that your dues are worth it for job protection and the insurance products, I suggest that you rethink it. If I add up my dues, it far surpasses anything I'd probably spend on a lawyer or insurance. And as far as FPA and ALPA getting pilots back their jobs, I'd have to say that many they've gotten back shouldn't have gotten them back and some of those pilots probably shouldn't have been doing this job in the first place (PA a prime example).

What I was trying to say, is if you believe everything you say, at the very least the dues are worth job protection/insurance. I am think they are worth a whole lot more than that. Remember what "at will" means, all the lawyers in the world could not protect you in many of the cases we have seen overturned.

I agree one side effect of a Union is representing the 1 % (insert your figure) that should not be here in the first place, but even in this time of turmoil we are in a better place than the alternative, once again my opinion. I have never claimed o be thrilled with the LOA, Age 60 etc. just read my other posts. I was more put off by the rip off remark in his post I guess. I think we can all agree we need representation, become activists, writing email to your reps is the least you can do. ( I am referring to our whole group).

Have a good weekend. Go Packers.