FDX: Professional Negotiating Firm?? Poll
 

While it's great we supposedly have a good FDX "Pilot" negotiating team led by FE, should we have a professional negotiating firm as our face to face team with the company??

This one is a no brainer. Fred is a nice guy and all, but come on.

I sure wish this was an official union poll and not fun little make believe one.

Why a union poll wouldn't change the MEC's mind anyway. They would just do what they thought was right.

I say start "pounding" on your reps to do their "fiduciary" duty and research this option. Then tell us WHY or WHY NOT!! I don't want to hear the ALPA "party" line that our business is too complicated for anyone else to understand (give me a break) or that "well, we have ALPA's lawyers sitting behind us". I want a professional firm developing our strategies on how to reach our "pillars", under the eye of our union negotiating team, and to be the lead guys at the table facing the companies team.

Considering the holes in this contract, the LOA, etc., I can't see why we should not have professional negotiators (spelled "Lawyers"). There is just no way a group of pilots, no matter how well intentioned, are going to out negotiate a group of lawyers who do it for a living! Why our MEC can't get this through it's thick skulls makes a member say, "Hmmm, There must be something else motivating our MEC." Could it be power? Could it be greed? It's got to be more than just plain old incompetence. At least I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in that regard.

We should not just hire a professional negotiator, we should hire a proven negotiator that has worked for an airline negotiating against pilots.

We have 4700 pilots, with an average yearly salary of say $150,000 per year, paying 1.95% dues.

150,000 x 4700 x .0195 = $13,747,500 per year x 3 yrs (2008, 2009, 2010) = $41,242,500 of dues between now and 2011. I think we could afford to offer a negotiator 5 or 6 million. We could probably hire DM for less.:eek:

A novel and PERFECT idea!!:D Maybe you should be on the MEC!!:eek:

Ahhhh....So, that's how UAL and DAL got their pre 9-11 contracts. They just hired a "professional" negotiator?

Wow, that's brilliant!! Wonder why nobody else ever thought of that?

I'm not against hiring an outside negotiator. But, I know that is not our problem. We are! Or, at least we have been the problem in every negotiation on this property. I would say except the FDA LOA...But it passed by 68%.

We don't need another negotiator. We need an educator and a motivated crewforce.
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I hate to disagree with you but we had 95+% voluntary membership during the last negotiations as well as the crewforce behind the team (my NC speaks for me!). We were as unified as I've ever seen here at FDX. I'll agree that we still had "independent operators" but I think they were the same bunch as always. I don't think it's different at any other operator. However, we were sold unbelievably short by our last NC and the effects are now being seen in the "raping" of our lines because of no effort on their part in fixing our workrules. Any monetary gains we supposedly made have been neutralized and then some by the optimizer. The company is probably laughing all the way to the bank. We told our NC what we wanted (pillars) and they couldn't deliver. I agree with a ealier poster....don't send novices against the companies lawyers/team.

You pick UAL and DAL who probably negotiated their pre 9-11 contracts what 10 years or so ago. Ask the guys at Continental, or UAL, DAL, USAir what they think of ALPA's "help" or negotiating ability and I know you'll get a different tune today. A guy at DAL told me five days ago that if it wasn't an agency shop he'd NEVER give another dime to ALPA. When I went for my last physical I got into a discussion with a guy from Continental. He said ALPA couldn't negotiate a descent contract if it was handed to them. He was disgusted.

In the end, if the MEC doesn't FULLY investigate this option they are not doing their job!!!!!!!:mad:

The problem is that we don't have $13.7 million per year to work with. That goes to ALPA national, who then decides how much goes back to the FDX MEC for our (their) purposes. Guess what... the FDX MEC budget for 2007 was some $4.2 million. So no, we don't have $5 or $6 million laying about to pay a professional negotiator. :mad:

Well somebody has to pay for all those costing models ALPA National keeps in a closet. It might as well be us.

"My NC speaks for me!" Talk is cheap! It's easy to put a friggin' sticker on your bag. Did you go to any picketing events(other than while hub-turning)? The participation was pitiful!



I guarantee you, to get those pre 9-11 contracts, it was different at UAL and DAL!

Actually, UAL's was in 2000. And, DAL's was in 2001. Not that long before we started our negotiations.

Yup, gotta point fingers at somebody. Might as well be the only group that was on their side. Management bankrupted them, the courts p!ssed on them, and Congress and the White House turned their backs to it. Yep, lets blame ALPA. ALPA hosed 'em. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm sure there is a recognized syndrome, for that kind of response. Seriously.

I've already said that I'm not against looking at an outside negotiator...I just don't want anyone to think that getting an outsider to negotiate for us, in itself, is the answer. It could just be another waste of money.

We need to get involved, take back our MEC, man up and show some measurable resolve next negotiations. Without that...it doesn't matter who's sitting on our side of the table.

I don't think anybody thinks having negotiators alone will make for a better contract. The point is why do we re-invent the wheel every four years with a bunch of pilots that know zilch about negotiating with a Fortune 100 company? Have our token guy, ie. FE and get a few cut-throat lawyers like the company has and get it done. Crew resolve would be there if half the guys don't feel like they are getting hosed on a bad deal. And the company would not be as able to pull fast ones on us with their legaleeze that they use.

Busboy,

I agree that we are a collective group of independent agents at times. A little less so during negotiations.

The point of a professional negotiator is that we, as stupid pilots, get outsmarted at every turn at the table. What appears to us as being solid strengthening in work rules, ends up leaking more than a colander full of pasta sitting in your grandmother's kitchen sink. We need people who are trained to screw other people. I'm tired of bending over.

alpa does not negotiate the contract for us per se. We need to support whim ever negotiates our next contract. UAL, when they negotiate the contract of 2000 had a pilot negotiate it. He had a Masters in Labor Relations and was one heck of a negotiator. He also had a very unified pilot group. Goodwin the CEO was a bag of rocks. I beg to differ on the how unified the FedEx group was for the past negotiations. To have a necklace and a bunch of stickers say I support the Union is nice, but not picking up DP's is key. Action speaks the loudest. We are ALPA. A professional may do slightly better but we must be unified, no dp's and our leverage are the power levers. The World on Time does not happen without us!!! When it comes time for family awareness, spend the time at home. I would like to see a pro but he will need better support than stickers and necklaces...

H

OK!! I'll agree that it's not a total solution but I doubt that it would be a waste of money. Hopefully between some solid strategies, a supportive crewforce AND a vocal stance against those independents working against us we'll be able to get the job done correctly this time.

We need to talk about it. In the crashpads, over a beer, anywhere but the whole crew force need to be on board. Peer pressure.

This is a personality driven argument. People are rightly upset with the heavyhanded and autocratic style of DW and BC. But I can't see how a team of hired negotiators would do any better. First off, they would not be able to cut any deals on their own and would have to run everything through the prez and MEC, just like now. Who would tell them what company proposal was a bad idea and what was good....us. They would still need pilot experts in scheduling, safety, retirement, health care and all the other things important to us. What we need is a union president and MEC and NC chairman who listen and care what the crew force think. Had we had that the last few years, this discussion would be moot. The resources are there, we just need the right people. (BTW...I don't think DM has the grit required to replace DW when he finally goes....but there are a lot of good, smart guys who can replace him.....unless,of course, we want a "professional" union president too?)

This:

I agree with. This:

is kind of like saying a good divorce lawyer isn't worth the money because he has to run everything through you first.

Wake up and smell the coffee
 

This thread would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that your (as in the collective) opinion does have an affect (on current and future) FDX ALPA leadership. Even more ominously, it is surely read (and no doubt, laughed at) by the very people we have to negotiate against. :eek:

Our problem is not lack of (leadership) interest in improving our work conditions and pay; DW and all on the MEC stand to benefit, as do you, by better pay and improved sch/scope/etc. The problem isn't even lack of (proven) resolve by the membership. The problem is the inability to even get to a position to squeeze the company and make them see the benefit of agreeing to our terms. We might fail collectively to "pull the trigger" in a self help situation but unless the NMB will let us out of mediation, we are forced to sit and plead with the company to offer us better terms. ALPA is not the problem in negotiating nor was BC, the problem was political leadership in Washington that is unabashedly anti labor. We could have held out for more, and in all likelihood, would still be waiting for (any) improvements, or a pay raise, since the first contract.

If you think ALPA is the root of all our problems, go on ahead and delude yourself. Age 65, our contract, even our hated LOA, are all the result of the (national) political power we don't have and management does. Keep that in mind as you consider your vote 10 months from now. ;)

I wonder why???????

You guys are funny; you bring me amusement every night. Thanks.

For the Doubting Thomases out there, why don’t you try to interview a professional negotiator and find out what he does, how he does it and how much he charges? You can present the research findings to your MEC. It stands to reason that if you have the evidence to back up your contention that you would like the services of a professional negotiator, the MEC is more likely to listen.

I have participated in negotiations (true, not airline ones, but they’re similar) before, as representative of one side. First of all, I did not find out what the other side wanted, then run over to my clients in the other room to get an answer and then run back to the first room. A good amount of work was done prior to the meetings with the other side. Long before setting the date of the first meeting, I met with my clients and know everything I needed to know, including what they wanted ideally, what they can “give away” and what are simply not negotiable. I also would have an idea what the other side might say and my clients will discuss whether they like them as is or if they needed adjustment. As their advocate, I am authorized to agree to some pre-determined items and when presented with something out of the scope, I am obligated to continue the meeting in order to consult with my clients.

So, I am not saying a professional negotiator is not useful, but certainly cannot hurt. As I understand it, you have not had one and look where you are now. Or perhaps I am just hearing from the disgruntled. I have to remember though that it was I who said working at FedEx is Kafkaesque.

Anyway, good luck! Does this poll have “binding precedent?” ;) Can I vote?

Is that something like metamucil?:D

How about a professional educator to teach our pilots how substandard an offer is once it arrives? We didn't get that with the LOA and guys voted on something they didn't understand.

That is, after all, how poor agreements get ratified. Knowledge is power.

At the night Hub meeting last week, someone asked why we didn't have professionals on our negotiating team. The question wasn't answered until a hour later just before I left for my jumpseat. DW said we do have 3-4(?) lawyers on staff with one being a the top of her peer list for negotiating.
That doesn't mean we couldn't use more but we do have pros working with the contract committee.

problem is the inability to even get to a position to squeeze the company and make them see the benefit of agreeing to our terms.

We could have held out on the 1st LOA, hoping for a better and not lost much if it did not go our way.

This thread wouldn't be so hilarious if we lived in a communist country.

So now you're saying we're supposed to perform the "fiduciary responsibility" that our union repeatedly told us during our scope payment mess?? I, for one, think a professional firm, who does what you just detailed for a living (and doesn't have a dog in the fight (like ALPA national)) would do a better job working directly for the customer (US) paying them.
I believe that "new blood" in the form of an outside firm may bring new strategies and ideas to our negotiating effort.

By the way, you can most certainly vote, however in this vote you don't have time left to change it.:rolleyes: Max sarcasm

How many pilots can figger out the "whereas" and "towits"??? Hire an attorney that is EXPERIENCED in negotiations, and have our negotiating team there to explain to the attorney what we want, and the attorney can explain the "legaleese" to us. No brainer.

Micro, I agree with you that a professional will do good by you. The union doesn't seem to think so and if you wanted to sway them your way, you could present them with your own research findings. You don't have to do it, but it would help. I was just trying to make helpful suggestions. Most everyone on this board knows my heart is in the right place.

Consider me a doubting Thomas <g>. I don't believe similiar because of the RLA makes it more difficult to negotiate an 'amendable' CBA than an expiring CBA. That automatically gives an edge to management. At our company we have used "professional negotiators". i.e. Hired expert Atty's with expertise in various areas. Brilliant people who improve the language and position for the union. The NC team is made up of the core group of pilots who are in all negotiation sessions and sent to school on negotiations, and the experts as needed, and pilot experts in various committees who deal with the company year round in the trenches (Training, Catering, HIMS, etc). When we negotiate Scope or Pensions for example, we have the "Professional Negotiator" take the front seat with the pilot negotiators aboard. The challenge is, negotiations take years. drawn out, and management sits with there atty's and labor folks and wait till your experts (area of expertise professional negotiator)are gone, attemp to change a few 'minor details' on a trade when you are talking about Scheduling, The nuances are tremendous. Union now faced with a choice, make the 'trade' for something else they have waited for 19 months for an answer, or attemp to reschedule the expert? Scope atty who can't get there for 3 days (company knows this of course) and face a management team that refuses to discuss the issue further when the expert is at the table. This is intentional because it causes the rest of the union membership to get frustrated at the delays (management ideal set up). Frustrates the NC because of the pressure to get a deal. Why doubting Thomas? Because management knows how to exploit labors frustrations over a several year protracted war regardless of who is negotiating for the pilot group. Professionals negotiators are consultants, etc that create own set of challenges. Very beneficial, but not the golden bullet answer to our pilot dreams. Takes a team, realizing whomever is in Washington (Dems or Repubs) will not support pilot "union" labor because we make to much money and are perceived as not worth the headache of defending.
I favor the mixed team of pilots who have been trained and have a broad experience on the line, core NC committee, "Professional Negotiators", union staff subject experts, grievance committee experts and experts in all the specific articles. Oh, and a unified pilot group which is a wild card because of competing interests within the group which management knows how to exploit as well.
YMMV

I'll take your suggestion to heart and start my research. Hopefully others will put pressure on their Reps to our MEC do their "research" too.

I would agree that we need to educate/reeducate/slap our group of pilots to think and act in a way that will get us something that we should be fighting for. But, being the optimist I am.....it might never happen. No concept of leverage/unity with our bunch!

I've worked with these "lawyers" and they are not very competent! Moreover, as Vagabond said, it would behoove us to hire experienced attorneys who negotiate labor contracts as their chosen field of expertise. BTW, we also have numerous lawyers who are pilots here who could better interpret the proposals and act as go between with the hired guns. That's how it is done in the real world. In-house counsel acts as go between with hired litigator. That's what our company does, and it works. Only in this crazy Airline Business do pilots think they can act as professional lawyers. Lincoln once remarked, "He would be his own lawyer has a fool for a client."

This all would cut into the ALPA "food chain" you realise. This is the real reason we don't do it. It cuts off someone's water.

I consider myself to be a professional pilot. I take pride in what I do and am always trying to improve my abilities. When my toilet is on the fritz, I call a professional plumber. Enough said.
fbh

We are no doubt INTIMIDATED and FEARFUL of the Company. WHY ? Because we allow it so we can get that next paycheck. We have an organization here that boasts Polls, Studies, cites infractions, claims to "take it back", too much rhetoric. The last time I spoke with an officer of the MEC, I was told that FedEx is BIG BUSINESS, nevermind my concerns of SAFTEY, FATIGUE, SCHEDULING issues, etc. With a group of guys SYMPATHETIC and DANCING with the Company, we are never going to get anywhere except possibly holding protest signs and eating lots of hotdogs. So far, I get a shiney magazine, lots of e-mails and meetings, too much talk and not enough meaningful leadership, in return for 1.95% dues. Modern Day Unions, just another rip-off, next to paying taxes.

Ask all the pilot' that have gotten their jobs back through the work of FPA or ALPA. Union dues are worth every penny for job protection and the insurance products alone IMHO. I realize there are problems out there, but do you really think you would be better off as an "at will employee" ? That is a major problem at many airlines, everyone acting as an individual, thinking they know better than everyone else. I compare it to DP's, just because you think the pairing is "better than something else I fly" so you pick it up, you undermine the process and directly affect the unity and effectiveness of a UNION. Simple example that can be extrapolated into a hundred different examples of how we self inflict injuries !

I'm going to have to disagree with you for the most part and agree with Tenn (except for the modern day rip-off remark). While we are better off than being an "at will employee", we have NOT been represented well by our union (scope payments, contract, LOA, age 60,etc). When the union disregards or misrepresents it's members it causes members to disregard the union and kills unity and union effectiveness. If all you think is that your dues are worth it for job protection and the insurance products, I suggest that you rethink it. If I add up my dues, it far surpasses anything I'd probably spend on a lawyer or insurance. And as far as FPA and ALPA getting pilots back their jobs, I'd have to say that many they've gotten back shouldn't have gotten them back and some of those pilots probably shouldn't have been doing this job in the first place (PA a prime example).

What I was trying to say, is if you believe everything you say, at the very least the dues are worth job protection/insurance. I am think they are worth a whole lot more than that. Remember what "at will" means, all the lawyers in the world could not protect you in many of the cases we have seen overturned.

I agree one side effect of a Union is representing the 1 % (insert your figure) that should not be here in the first place, but even in this time of turmoil we are in a better place than the alternative, once again my opinion. I have never claimed o be thrilled with the LOA, Age 60 etc. just read my other posts. I was more put off by the rip off remark in his post I guess. I think we can all agree we need representation, become activists, writing email to your reps is the least you can do. ( I am referring to our whole group).

Have a good weekend. Go Packers.