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FedEx Purchase of Gemini
I've been hearing a lot of stirring recently about FedEx acquiring Gemini Air Cargo. Gemini was held by the Carlyle Group but now shows on their web-site (Carlyle's) as realized and sold; however, doesn't mention to whom. Is it just the guys I'm flying with or has anybody else heard the same; and can someone with more business knowledge than me tell me what the SEC filing requirements would be if FedEx bought Gemini, a privately held company?
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I understand that purchasing Gemini is one of the only ways to quickly get some badly needed airframes. Not so sure this will actually happen, but it's a hot rumor fer sher.
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That's actually the reasoning that makes me think FedEx buying Gemini is reasonable; similar fleet types, and the MD-11's that no one can seem to get their hands on now (thanks Boeing). Gemini acquisition would be an instant 10% increase in ton-mile capacity to Purple's MD-11/10 fleet. But anyhow, has anybody heard anything more than just the rumor mill?
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What makes you guys think Brown isn't in the process already. We're hearing the same rumors.
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How many pilots does Gemini have? I'm thinking I'd rather have them incorporate into the UPS seniority list than Fedex's! Go big brown.
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Duece, I wouldn't unless they were stapled at the bottom. You'd be OK with a merged seniority list by Date of Hire? Lots of F/Os wouldn't be too happy with that.
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Heard this same rumor over 5 years ago at Gemini. If true (doubtful) Wouldn't surprise me to see whoever purchased the company to keep the certifcate seperate.
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If FDX bought Gemini, it would be a good anti-union tool to keep them separate then use Gemini to haul stuff in case we threaten to walk. Just a thought.
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We are ALPA at Gemini...That won't happen..
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Good either way
FDX or UPS, it would help us all by unifing two groups rather than providing (another) weapon, or threat, to be used in a work action.;)
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Originally Posted by dckozak
FDX or UPS, it would help us all by unifing two groups rather than providing (another) weapon, or threat, to be used in a work action.;)
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Originally Posted by Deuce130
How many pilots does Gemini have? I'm thinking I'd rather have them incorporate into the UPS seniority list than Fedex's! Go big brown.
Why would you rather see us at UPS. UPS does not have a great track record for taking pilots from companies they buy. It is not my intent to be disrespectful of UPS or FedEx but why do you think either would take us? |
Originally Posted by fogrunner
About 200 pilots and 50 PFEs.
Why would you rather see us at UPS. UPS does not have a great track record for taking pilots from companies they buy. It is not my intent to be disrespectful of UPS or FedEx but why do you think either would take us? That comment was meant to be funny, but I also realize that it's no laughing matter for the guys at Gemini. I work for FDX and I was just trying to point out that it would suck going down 200 spots on the seniority list overnight (life Flying Tigers acquisition back in 1990). Whatever happens, I hope that the pilots at Gemini get taken care of by whoever, if anyone, buys them out. |
Originally Posted by fogrunner
How do you figure that? Look at Challenge and what happened to their pilots. What makes you think that UPS would keep us.
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Gemini is a small and relatively junior pilot group compared to Purple or Brown. (I believe its only been around for ten years.) However, it has been sold by its controlling owner; Carlyle Group. Now, how do all of us in the knitting circle figure out who bought the controlling interest?
If a publicly held company purchases a privately held company, doesn't the public company have to file something with the SEC? Shareholders? I am a purple shareholder and have rec'vd nothing. What timeline is involved? Doesn't someone in this forum have an MBA? Help me out...and pray purple bought them. |
Originally Posted by dckozak
Well, I guess after all the bitching and moaning is over (re: seniority intergration) it would be better for both, with either UPS or FDX. Maybe it would be smoother at FDX, but thats just a guess, I sense the UPS pilots would be tougher on an aquiring pilot group than FDX, IMHO. No doubt, there would be wailing from all quaters, allways is when pilots are involved.:D
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Originally Posted by jonnyjetprop
I guess that you are not filled on UPS buying Challenge Air Cargo. They bought the routes, the Central and South American ground operations and the facility in MIA. They didn't take a single pilot. I guess it would suck to be bought by UPS.
mainly by junior purple and senior Gemini pilots.:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld
What makes you guys think Brown isn't in the process already. We're hearing the same rumors.
Yeah Brown, if it is true and UPS does buy Gemini I guess UPS will fire all the Gemini pilots just like it fired all the Challenge Air Cargo guys after it purchased Challenge in 2000. Good luck Gemni Pilots your going to need it with a company like UPSux.......... |
This might seem naive of me; however, if you think of the cost of training 250 crewmembers, at $40,000 per crewmember, the invested cost for 250 crewmembers is 10 million dollars. If you fire the Gemini guys, UPS has to hire and train 250 pilots. On the flip side of the coin, if the Gemini guys can't hold the MD-11, then you end up paying the training cost anyway.
I'm not familiar with the Challenge deal, it just seems like a waste of money to retrain additional crews. |
I can't Figure this out. Most are upset because of purchasing an airline and bringing on their pilots then most are upset about letting go pilots of the airline you bought. Which is it?
Didn't Challenge have something like 4 757 pf"s? Most of their pilots were 707 and DC-10 pilots. Why should UPS have kept them? I'm sure if UPS did the IPA would be calling customers and telling them that they are being replaced. |
If y'all will indulge a short digression...
is Gemini still flying some DHL contracts? |
Originally Posted by Speed
If y'all will indulge a short digression...
is Gemini still flying some DHL contracts? |
A REAL Professional Comment...
Originally Posted by Freighter Captain
Duece, I wouldn't unless they were stapled at the bottom. You'd be OK with a merged seniority list by Date of Hire? Lots of F/Os wouldn't be too happy with that.
Well, I'm sure you're just the 'pride of your company', FreighterCapt. "...Stapled to the bottom...", eh? That is a real professional, equitable statement. You think all Gemini pilots deserve to get screwed, and that all your pilots deserve their seniority, but they don't? Real fair play, dude. I'm sure you're great to fly with. Are you sure you're not really an American Airlines pilot? |
I can't Figure this out. Most are upset because of purchasing an airline and bringing on their pilots then most are upset about letting go pilots of the airline you bought. Which is it? If FedEx were to buy us then there is something in the ALPA bylaws about integration. The argument was made that the Jr guys at FedEx would lose about 200 places with a straight DOH intergration. The Sr guys at Gemini would not be able to hold widebody Capt. That is what these guys are talking about. It is like talking about winning the lottery, you can talk about what you are going to do with all that money. Until it actually happens it is all hot air. If there are any Gemini guys thinking of FedEx buying us so you can go work there, the only way you are going to wear a FedEx uniform is to apply, interview and get hired. |
Originally Posted by fogrunner
It is both. If UPS were to buy us I think the Gemini guys would be gone. We only have 4 MD11s. I don't think UPS wants to run our DC-10-30s.
If FedEx were to buy us then there is something in the ALPA bylaws about integration. Don't count on ALPA for a thing, fogrunner. They'll sell you out in a heartbeat if it means any political, financial or net gain. TRUST me. If Gemini is the flavor of the month, you need to get your pilots to set up a legal fund NOW, and have merger counsel ready ASAP if a buyout comes along. Don't trust your union to provide one, get your own. |
FedEx Purchase of Gemini
Gents/Ladies
I am new to this site. Here goes my 1st post! Quit worrying about things you can't control! If and when FDX or UPS, or AStar buys Gemini........then you can get your panties in a wad, although you still have little control of the outcome. Don't lose sight that both FDX and UPS are in heated contract talks. MGT loves to slip rumors of mergers, acquisitions and BID mega bids. This is all designed to keep your eyes off the Ball. If a merger happens, it happens. Why waste time speculating until it does? In any event I suspect Gemini crews have a merger successorship clause in their contract.( Good thing for you folks you voted in a Union). They won't be stapled to the bottom of a list. The buying carrier Pilot group will fight for their pilots best interests and the Gemini pilots will fight for their best interests. As in most mergers seniority intergration will be decided by a nuetral arbitrator. Been there and done that! Mergers always screw somebody...........just the way it is. Fly safe everyone..........Red eye |
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
...or AStar buys Gemini........
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Originally Posted by B757200ER
Don't count on ALPA for a thing, fogrunner. They'll sell you out in a heartbeat if it means any political, financial or net gain. TRUST me.
If Gemini is the flavor of the month, you need to get your pilots to set up a legal fund NOW, and have merger counsel ready ASAP if a buyout comes along. Don't trust your union to provide one, get your own. If there ever is a merger you will find that ALPA at FedEx will do the honorable thing and operate in accordance with the ALPA merger policy. That being said, there is probably no truth to the rumor of FedEx buying Gemani. |
Bull Sh** makes the world go around
Originally Posted by FoxHunter
......... That being said, there is probably no truth to the rumor of FedEx buying Gemani.
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Originally Posted by dckozak
give you an excuse to not do some chore around the house!:D
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the truth
This came from our D.O. today............
Fantasy time over...... back to the real world............ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Folks, I never cease to be amazed at the energy and creativity of the "Post-Christmas Season/1st Quarter Slowdown" rumor-generating phenomena which overtakes us at this time of the year with such predictable regularity, and of late on an almost diurnal basis. If some people did not take this stuff so seriously, it would truly have some genuine entertainment value. But, alas, there are apparently those among us who constantly "see dead people" in some quadrant of their minds, and lose whatever firmness of grip they might have once had on the reality bird as it flies away from them into the far reaches of the big blue sky above. Now, I fully recognize that craziness does have its benefits, and the Seinfeld-esque mantra, "Not that there's anything wrong with that..." might possibly apply. But it applies only for those who are themselves the crazy ones. The rest of the world must endure the resultant pandemonium our somewhat crazy brethren create by their flights of fantasy. So, in an effort to reduce that pandemonium, let's cut to the chase and get to the meat of this season's rants and rumors, shall we? First, Gemini has not been, is not being, and will not be sold to FedEx/UPS/Atlas/World/YourNameHere under any circumstances currently envisioned, foreseeable, or discussed. So gee whiz folks, can we puh-leeze give that particular recurr |
Announcement soon
Originally Posted by fogrunner
This came from our D.O. today............
Fantasy time over...... back to the real world............ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ............... First, Gemini has not been, is not being, and will not be sold to FedEx/UPS/Atlas/World/YourNameHere under any circumstances currently envisioned, foreseeable, or discussed. So gee whiz folks, can we puh-leeze give that particular recurr Then we can take this as proof that someone is about to announce the purchase of Gemini:D |
Gotta satisfy the SEC, right? Just following the rules, keep the media guessing.
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Really, what does UPS get from Gemini...pretty much nothing. They don't own any routes, and we can buy 4 more MD-11's from somebody without all the baggage of integrating seniority lists. I had always heard that there were alot of scabs at Challenge Air....anybody familiar with Challenge care to comment? I was always curious why the Challenge Air guys did'nt fight too hard to integrate with UPS?
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B757er
I have a question concerning your comment about fair play and how it relates to integrating seniority lists etc. Why do you feel that since your airline is bought up by another, the buying airline has the duty to integrate the bought pilots in a "fair" way. I'm not against it, and in a perfect world it would be fair, but I think back to TWA/American. No self respecting pilot with any credentials and qualifications would have applied to TWA from 1995 till the buy-out. So essentially all these guys that couldn't get hired at American/Delta/United etc settle for TWA and then demand they be integrated based on date of hire!!! its like winning the lottery. I interviewed at TWA in 1994, and there were guys in my group who had 1500 hrs total time! and only a few hundred turbine/jet...the pay was embarrasing, and I went just for the interview practice because I would have lost money working for Them...I have nothing against Gemini, a few friends of mine work there, but if UPS or Fed-Ex buys you guys I would think you'd be happy about that even if you lose your Capt position You'd make more as an F/O.. I know I 'd be happy about it. |
Vito---
I completely disagree with your comments. I'm not Gemini, I was TWA. Over 80% of our pilots never applied at AA and certainly did'nt want to work there. I know I did'nt. Out of 2,400 TWA pilots, only 495 are left at AA; out of 22,500 TWA employees, only 1500 are left at AA. It was---hands down---the most inequitable, most lop-sided, and most destructive integration of employees in airline labor history. I was there; I lived it. So, in reference to your comments about UPS/FedEx buying Gemini, and taking only aircraft and no employees, or placing all Gemini pilots at the bottom of your seniority list---I disagree with it, and I have historical reasons, not to mention professional, fair ones, for thinking that way. One last comment regarding your "Be happy if you lose your Captain seat if you're an F/O making more money...": That has to be the worst part of integrating, losing your hard-earned Captain seat. BUT, I ask you this: WHAT good is a raise if you're FURLOUGHED? That was my experience. I stand for integrating employees FAIRLY; not allowing one larger group to slaughter the other, or either group to decide the integration. The ONLY fair, equitable way to decide pilot seniority integration is neutral, third-party binding arbitration. The AA pilots fought tooth-and-nail to deny us this right; they knew it would be fair. They did'nt want that---they wanted to get rid of us. |
Originally Posted by B757200ER
Vito---
The ONLY fair, equitable way to decide pilot seniority integration is neutral, third-party binding arbitration. The AA pilots fought tooth-and-nail to deny us this right; they knew it would be fair. They did'nt want that---they wanted to get rid of us. |
757Er,
I sympathize with your plight, but I'm also very familar with TWA..I was hired there in 95, but turned them down..The pay was an insult, I still remember at my interview, 2 commuter types in my group were talking about the payscales, one of them says "If I get hired here, I'm buying a new car" I told them "If I get hired here, I'll have to sell my car!" 7th year F/O pay was $39,ooo year!!! TWA was the Titanic and the AA buyout was the rescue ship..You guys hit the lottery when AA bought you up until 9-11. There was no way TWA could have made it through 9-11!!! I owned your stock and lost a ton!! every year I bought some under the premise that if you ever made money in just one quarter the stock would triple, and every quarter for 6 years TWA lost money....They must have fed you guys some pretty powerful kool-aid because all you guys sing the same tune about how you were screwed. I even heard a TWA guy say that you guys saved American????? I'm sorry about what eventually happened but TWA was a doomed ship, if it weren't for 9-11 you guys would have all been better off. When we're you hired there? and why would you go there instead of Delta/AA/UAL etc etc? anybody hired after 89-90 knew they were on the Titanic, and they ***** about the people who rescued them. |
dckozak----I agree with your sentiments, but I really can't see an airline acquiring AA, with 730 mainline jets and 10,700 pilots. WHO would buy them?
For Vito...
Originally Posted by Vito
757,
The TWA pay was an insult, I still remember at my interview, 2 commuter types in my group were talking about the payscales, one of them says "If I get hired here, I'm buying a new car" I told them "If I get hired here, I'll have to sell my car!" 7th year F/O pay was $39,ooo year!!! TWA was the Titanic and the AA buyout was the rescue ship..You guys hit the lottery when AA bought you up until 9-11. There was no way TWA could have made it through 9-11!!! As far as 'hitting the lottery', you could'nt be more removed from the truthful reality. I was stripped of all my seniority, and placed below not only 12,800 AA pilots, but 498 new-hire, probationary, F/Os and F/Es who had'nt even interviewed, been hired, been trained or been awarded a seniority number when the buyout was announced in January 2001. They moved our integration date back 4 months to April, just to place us below these newly-hired, junior pilots; then, when they found our April 9th integration date came on a day when 60 new-hire AA pilots started class---they switched it to April 10th just to put us below them as well. I was a 7th-yr 767 F/O, but included in that group of 1300 TWA pilots stapled to the bottom of AA's pilot list were 150 14-yr MD-80/717 Captains. Imagine you're a Captain at a major, and you're stapled below the newest, most inexperienced junior pilot at AA. Insulting. Your last statement "There was no way TWA could have made it through 9-11" is just a speculative guess, is'nt it? We'll never know, will we? But, consider this: AWA had half the airplanes we did, and half the cash; they got a US Government ATSB loan, downsized 20%, and survived to prosper, become profitable and find a merger partner. There is no reason to believe TWA could'nt have done the same thing---with a more reputable, more equitable, more compassionate and better organized merger partner.
Originally Posted by Vito
They must have fed you guys some pretty powerful kool-aid because all you guys sing the same tune about how you were screwed. I even heard a TWA guy say that you guys saved American?????
I'm sorry about what eventually happened but TWA was a doomed ship, if it weren't for 9-11 you guys would have all been better off. When we're you hired there? and why would you go there instead of Delta/AA/UAL etc etc? anybody hired after 89-90 knew they were on the Titanic, and they ***** about the people who rescued them. And no, TWA did'nt 'save' American, but it most certainly DID make AA the biggest airline in the world, whether UA/USAir hooked up or not. AA got a $2 billion airline for only $750 million, and reaped great benefits from TWA assets. Consider this fact: If AA had not acquired TWA, junior '98/99 hires at AA would be furloughed right now, instead of senior TWA pilots (up to '88 seniority). So, the buyout and subsequent holocaust of an integration saved their junior asses. All that said, I'd have been better off if TWA had been independent when 9-11 occured, and would have taken my chances as an independent instead of waiting 10 years for recall to MD-80 F/O on RSV, with a seniority number of 12,885, and no chance for Captain until I'm 55. So you see, our career paths have been quite different; you work for a financially healthy carrier, and I did'nt. Glad you lucked out, and best to you and your future. If you don't think luck has a big part to play in this business, you're mistaken. Noone has a crystal ball, my friend. |
Originally Posted by B757200ER
dckozak----I agree with your sentiments, but I really can't see an airline acquiring AA, with 730 mainline jets and 10,700 pilots. WHO would buy them?
For Vito... I'm not sure where you're getting that, maybe '95 scales? I was hired in '96, got a nice raise in '98 with new contract, and was making six figures as a B-767-I F/O when AA bought us (as a 7th-yr F/O). I did get a raise, but then got bumped off 767 to MD-80-D, then furloughed. Again, what good is a raise if you're furloughed? No sale. As far as 'hitting the lottery', you could'nt be more removed from the truthful reality. I was stripped of all my seniority, and placed below not only 12,800 AA pilots, but 498 new-hire, probationary, F/Os and F/Es who had'nt even interviewed, been hired, been trained or been awarded a seniority number when the buyout was announced in January 2001. They moved our integration date back 4 months to April, just to place us below these newly-hired, junior pilots; then, when they found our April 9th integration date came on a day when 60 new-hire AA pilots started class---they switched it to April 10th just to put us below them as well. I was a 7th-yr 767 F/O, but included in that group of 1300 TWA pilots stapled to the bottom of AA's pilot list were 150 14-yr MD-80/717 Captains. Imagine you're a Captain at a major, and you're stapled below the newest, most inexperienced junior pilot at AA. Insulting. Your last statement "There was no way TWA could have made it through 9-11" is just a speculative guess, is'nt it? We'll never know, will we? But, consider this: AWA had half the airplanes we did, and half the cash; they got a US Government ATSB loan, downsized 20%, and survived to prosper, become profitable and find a merger partner. There is no reason to believe TWA could'nt have done the same thing---with a more reputable, more equitable, more compassionate and better organized merger partner. 'Kool-Aid'? Vito, you sound like the spokesman for the AA pilots' union, the APA. Their members think TWA had one foot in the grave, did'nt deserve their jobs, and should'nt be integrated at all. What do you call it when you think YOU deserve your job, but the other guy does'nt? The reality is they were mis-informed, and so are you. And no, TWA did'nt 'save' American, but it most certainly DID make AA the biggest airline in the world, whether UA/USAir hooked up or not. AA got a $2 billion airline for only $750 million, and reaped great benefits from TWA assets. Consider this fact: If AA had not acquired TWA, junior '98/99 hires at AA would be furloughed right now, instead of senior TWA pilots (up to '88 seniority). So, the buyout and subsequent holocaust of an integration saved their junior asses. All that said, I'd have been better off if TWA had been independent when 9-11 occured, and would have taken my chances as an independent instead of waiting 10 years for recall to MD-80 F/O on RSV, with a seniority number of 12,885, and no chance for Captain until I'm 55. So you see, our career paths have been quite different; you work for a financially healthy carrier, and I did'nt. Glad you lucked out, and best to you and your future. If you don't think luck has a big part to play in this business, you're mistaken. Noone has a crystal ball, my friend. The brotherhood of pilots- Yay me and screw you. I'm a 1987 TWA hire who realized he screwed up and got out as fast as he could. I lucked out and did exactly that in 1990. |
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