FDX - Porked away NAT line check
 

Fellow Maddog Fedex dudes. I’ve had a couple of cocktails and I’m posting. Probably not a good idea but that’s the way it is. I know most of us are top notch drivers that do the job right. I really hope the tools that caused the recent emails from standards are on this forum and get to see this post. If so, here’s to you – toolbags.

Thanks to you - the 1% idiots for the latest “war & peace” emails (x2) from the MD-11 standards gurus. ***!!! Now we get to deal with extra procedures and additional FAA scrutiny on line checks because you fools are too lazy to do your job properly. I like flying international but I can’t hold it on a regular basis. I’ll be glad to handle your cherry Europe trip if you’re too incompetent to get there without a GNE or inability to pass a line check over the North Atlantic.

This job has its challenges but give me a break. You idiots are making it wayyyyyy harder than it needs to be. Gander tells you to cross 50W at FL290 and you’re at FL330 – you f--king do it. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall on that flight deck during the line check. “Hey, dude, do you think the jet is going to descend to make the restriction? Boy, I hope so. What should we do if it doesn’t start down. Jeez, we’re only 10 mile from the point we’re supposed to be at 290, the jet is still at 330, what should we do? ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pathetic!!! Where do we get these idiots???

I don’t care if you “fessed up” or not. You guys are tools and you have no business flying around TN never mind crossing the North Atlantic.
Rant over.

Tell it like it is.

Adler,

I think you have had too many cocktails. We all have screwed up, and most of us were lucky enough for it not to happen on a line check. If you are that good, you won't mind the extra scrutiny. Look at it as another chance to succeed....

Bring it on. I've yet to stumble on a check ride in 20 years. I just have a hard time believing that we have folks who rise to such a level of incompetence.

As I said, I’d be glad to fly their trips – line check or not.

You know, we did this all to oursleves. They are sending the f/o's on international experience during ioe to hawaii. let's see, they fly on the same flight plan as filed, no changes, no hf position report...wham bam thank you ma'am. come on really. i am an af dork, but i have spent time teaching students on oceanic procedures. fedex hasn't taught sheet. good luck to the non-military, or even non heavies dudes.

I'd be willing to cut some slack if the problem on this line check had been unique to class-2 nav procedures or flying in the NAT tracks (in light of the flawed IOE scheduling you pointed out). However, this was a basic situation anyone could have encountered over the U.S. ATC tells you to cross a point at an altitude. Automation is nice but you need to make sure the jet does what it is supposed to do.

One other pet peeve. I'm continually amazed at the guys in the left seat of the MD-11 who choose to fly around with their hands in their lap with the AP on. We're below 3K' getting vectored to final or actually on final and they're still closer to jacking off than flying the jet. Good grief!! It sure would be nice if they even pretended to be flying the jet instead of along for the ride. Good night all - maybe I'll be in a better mood tomorrow - !hic! :D

I hope so. You're not sounding really great right now. IMHO.

anything happen to the LCA?

Could've happened to anybody. I've been on this jet for 3 yrs. Currently flying with an LCA. We talked about what happen. Apparently prof does not work when making a relatively small descent in cruise. He even demoed it for me. That's the first I had ever heard that.

It is a training issue relative to our scope of operations. I have not done a NAT in over 15 months. When was the last time you were in Almaty? We go into so many places around the world and domestically, hard to be on top of everything.

Domestic Flag carriers on the 777 or 747 might go to 6-7 cities. What do we have 50 cities in our bid pack?

THAT...is the right question! What about an LCA that didn't intervene soon enough to prevent the violation/altitude deviation? Is he busted too? Also, if the F/O's just suddenly became NOQ, then you haven't got the correct number of qualified crew members to complete the flight.... I could be wrong......:cool:

Yep, you're wrong. Per the standards letter from SH, "The Check Airman is authorized to intervene in the interest of safety or legality but is not responsible if the crew’s actions or inactions result in a compromise of safety or legality."

So, it sounds like the Check Airman is not held accountable if the type-rated crew violates an FAR.

Oh well, it's not the first time...... :o

1. Lets see what happens with a brand new WB A-300 capt that's been on the property 3 years and could only hold a S/O seat and a new hire F/O now living in China. :eek:

2. To the comment about hand flying. IMHO I think this flip flopping of what is now considered standard is goofy. Takeing off and hand flying the jet on some complicated SID is silly and just shows how great you can fly the command bars. Go fly a cessna or piper for that. Show me you can land in a 35 knot X-wind.

3. As far as Class II procedures. I fault STDs for some of this. Every Capt AND F/O needs to get a crossing of both the atlantic and pacific. To just go to Hawaii for the F/O is again not getting the job done.

4. Finally I agree that with all of the places we go to it can be tough to be on your "A" game if your not going there consistently. But I've had F/O's never even open a chart or ask about Class II stuff and just sit there. Once I had a F/O that didn't plot and when I asked he said that the PF now does this. Made him a beer bet and I lost that one. OOppss, now I'm bad more flip floping on procedures from STDs.

My rant is over and I'm having my second cup of joe now......:cool:

So, it sounds like the Check Airman is not held accountable if the type-rated crew violates an FAR.[/QUOTE]

If the jet crashes the Check Airman dies 2 feet behind the crewmembers....

I disagree. My point is, it SHOULDN'T have happened to anybody. This has nothing to do with flying into 50 cities or some challenging part of the world or something even unique to a north atlantic crossing. This is basic airmanship. I don't care if PROF has some internal limitation or won't work...blah - blah. You don't sit there hoping the jet is going do what you want and then wonder why it didn't as you're violating your clearance. period - dot. You monitor and intervene when your knowledge of the situation indicates you need to - or.... You bust your checkride. Perfect call by the LCA.

Agreed
 

I agree with AdlerDriver and I'm sober. This was sloppy.

Although not specifically mentioned in either standards letter, the jet won't PROF a descent when the descent page shows T/D / 999 in the upper right corner. It will not descend unless you dumb it down and V/S or level change. Word around the farm...says this is what our brothers did.

On another Class II navigation subject, does anyone else think the way we input, check, abbreviate (via FMS display) our oceanic waypoints is dummer than dirt?

Right now, in the NATs my Capt is legal (required if on an airway) to enter the waypoint as a five ltr waypoint IF we are in Gander/Shanwick airspace. Then I say "checked" when doing the stby flt plan check.

Oh but wait, if we are on a random route in the Atlantic and not in Gander/Shanwick airspace then I read back the entire lat/long and I know that because if I didn't see the Capt input the waypoint I can tell it was inputted in standard format because the point displays as a seven character waypoint, not five. Don't confuse those waypoints over 99N that have N/E/S/W moved to the ctr digit of a five figure format. Hmmm...."more coffee pleaseeeee!"

Luckily, the N. Pacific random route is same as the Atlantic when not in Gander/Shanwick airspace. Except that Fukuoka doesn't have ADS and you have send posreps manually over CPDLC, but make sure you edit the next point as a mandatory reporting point b4 you send that report. How about that?

Good lord, if the DOD had this many options to define lat/longs we would have been dropping iron in wrong places all over the world. An ATO planners nightmare.

Somebody had the smarts to build the N. Pacific tracks with named waypoints and say these are fixed routes...buy that guy a beer.

Ok, I'm done ranting. :eek:

These line checks on international trips sound REALLY scary. I suggest you senior guys don't bid them in Mar and Apr. Domestic hub turns are much safer.

Come On! Not being at an assigned altitude is definitely compromising safety. Going over 250 knots below 10K may not be a safety but not being on altitude, that's pretty obvious. If this LCA was just kicking back and watching and wondering "are these guys going to come down or what" and letting them bust it then he definitely deserves to be fired. If he missed it just like they did, then he also deserves to be fired. It was a screw up all around and all 3 members should be held accountable.

Have any of you talked to the crew to see what actually happened?

Let's take these conversations to a private area somewhere and discuss it there. To have a few drinks and post on here about information like this is not "cool".