Busboy

Hey Adler,

Good post. Good ideas. Seems to me like those ideas are "cost neutral" for the most part. Send those into our new Neg Comm chair. He's asking for input.

I couldn't agree with your comments on real time trade processing more. However, 10 years ago is not accurate. We were using VIPS at EAL 23 years ago(even, over the phone), with real time processing. I was told about 20 yrs ago, by the FDX chief pilot, that real time processing was in the works at FDX.

They must have sent the software instructions via Zapmail, I guess.

NoKoolAid

AD,

Excellent points across the board. I sure hope the NC has it's fingers on the pulse of APC forums and makes some appropriate improvements for junior folks.

Coupla comments for my bruthas and sistas of flight:

After reading FE's introduction via message line, I feel all warm and fuzzy now that we have a true business relationship with the company.

Ever hear of a leveraged buyout or hostile takeover?

That's what happens around here every 6 years (4 year deal + 2 years of feet dragging). Problem is, WE GET OUR CLOCKS CLEANED! Welcome to the real business world.

I've heard nice things about FE, but as a new Captain and a new NC chairman, it's time to get past the pleasantries of introductions and Company-Union harmony.

The previous NC and current MEC have done some serious damage over the past 18 months for those of us with a pulse and only moderately paying attention.

The FDAs are supposed to be the future earnings growth for FDX. OK, let's start there and improve the FDA provisions to industry standard (current companies operating with HKG bases) + some extra salsa just to spice things up.

NC, NOW READ MY TYPING LIPS - BETTER PAY RATES, BETTER QOL (enhancements and protections), BETTER RETIREMENT... Should be able to knock that out in one weekend at BERNIE'S, right?

Bottom line - Money talks and you know the rest.

FDX pilots only respond to money (read DP crack wh***s and AGE 65 retro). Some guys would crawl across a busy street strewn with broken bottles and razor blades just to fly a 42+00 hour international DP. (Trip 2106)

NC guys have a thankless job, so thanks for the efforts in advance. FWIW --Hire some hard-ass labor attorneys, pay them to go for the jugular, and simply oversee the process. If they don't get the job done -- fire them. We will always be out-gunned and out-thought if we continue down the tried and true pilot negotiations.

Let's face it, pilots doing the work of real negotiators is laughable at best and the only reason we do it is because of our collective enormous egos -- the whole argument that no one can negotiate on behalf of pilots if they aren't pilots, blah, blah, blah. OK, add flight lessons to the real negotiators' compensation package and you have the answer!

That's a paradigm shift for you. Think outside the box. Economy of scale and all that.

Just trying to fit in with the business side of things here at FDX. Don't be offended bruthas and sistas - sometimes the truth hurts, but can also set you free!

Feel much better now. The meds really do work. Bartender?

2005 Blues

How about when you get denied an R-day drop request you get something besides "DENIED due to insufficient Reserves." How about something that says exactly how many guys are needed on reserve that day (or days) and how many they actually have.

-- Your R-day drop request was DENIED due to the following reason:
- 5 FO's required for RB on 5 Apr 08
- Pilots currently assigned:
1. #555345
2. #378634
3. #478688
4. #629744
5. #633478 --

At least you could check some calendars and know you're not being unreasonably denied.

Busboy

Hey Koolaid,

Just curious...What is it about outside "pro negotiators" that's going to entice our benevolent management into giving us a larger piece of the pie?

The contract is all $$$, whether it's in work rules, retirement, vacation or payrates. What? Is having another suit sitting across the table from Maliniak going to scare him into a better offer?

MANAGEMENT DOES NOT FEAR US!!! THEY HAVE NO REASON TO!!!

The best negotiator on the planet is not going to change their view of us. Only we can do that. Collectively.

That's why it's called "collective bargaining". To date, I would say we have never acted as a collective group. Thus, we have never given our Negotiating Commitee anything to bargain with. They have never had any bargaining power. Don't kid yourself...The company is not going to spend more on us, because we have more lawyers. The only way to get a better contract, is to force management to give it to us. And, that can only happen when management fears the resolve of this group. When they know that it will cost them more, to not give us what we deserve. That means convincing them that we are able, and willing, to do whatever it takes to get our contract. Up to, and including a strike.

To me, seeking outside negotiators is a waste of money. And, nothing more than a sad excuse for what a pitiful group of short sighted, greedy morons we are surrounded by.

We don't need more lawyers...We need leadership. Leadership that can mold this group into a real union. And ,members that can help educate those that just can't seem to get it.

Adlerdriver

Purpledog,
I don't think anything I've suggested would require a "silver bullet". Just a small effort on the part of a computer savvy programmer and some willingness on both sides to hash out the details. Essentially cost neutral, IMO. It shouldn't detract from efforts to improve the big ticket items at all. Actually, most of what I suggested is not worthy of contractual negotiations. They're procedural changes that could probably be accomplished with a side letter.

Busboy,
I agree with you. Pro Negotiators probably wouldn't help. Perhaps what koolaid meant was that we need a pro to evaluated the next batch of supposed "improvements" while they're still on the table (before they end up in a TA). Someone who can actually evaluate the complete, long term effects of some of the proposals and wave the BS flag. We sure don't seem able to do that on our own. Then maybe changes like the trip rig would have been fully evaluated and little things like it's effect on vacation and sick leave wouldn't "slip" through the cracks.

purpledog

Unfortunately everything costs something. When line guys are getting raped and my reserve pals are complaining about getting called out twice for the month, a plead for reserve improvements just doesn't have much traction. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions are all good ones. However, as someone pointed out earlier, without professional negotiators everything will be tit for tat.

.

Your ethusiasm and optimism for the company to simply grant us this is wonderful, albeit dillusional. Why would they give us something we want and not ask for something in return? I wouldn't if I was a Harvard MBA negotiator looking to maximize the company's take of the pie. You sound like a pilot negotiator.

I don't know any reserve bubbas whose quality of life has decreased in the last year. Most I know have trouble getting their 3 in 3. Every line flyer's has. Not all about me, just spread the wealth.

Micro

This is the same old ALPA argument we've heard for years. I'll agree that WE can have a better impact on negotiations. However, the ALPA lawyers, ALPA support services, our PILOT negotiation committee, and our union leadership seem to have COMPLETELY FAILED to see how what they negotiated would IMPACT this pilot group and didn't develop a strategy that would help get this pilot group behind them. So much for how GREAT they were or are. You cannot argue that outside help will not help develop a better strategy or help better determine what is negotiated will impact us unless it's investigated. If the MEC/NC doesn't investigate these options then they are FAILING to accomplish their fiduciary duty.

Micro

I guess you haven't either been here long or really reviewed the reserve section of the contract. Line guys getting raped??? Reserve guys have it GREAT because their only getting called out twice a month???

Here's a few problems with reserves:
1. Floating R-day (schedules option....ANY line guys have a MOVEABLE day??)
2. No protection jumpseating into MEM for reserve (Oh line guys already have that!!)
3. A+ and B+ periods (we got paid if moved before)
4. Show pay now only counts towards RLG not leveling (Changed in THIS contract)
5. No disruption pay for reserves (flew the same trip as the other guys in the cockpit but less pay).
6. No SIG input into R lines.

Shall I keep going??? Yeah guys are not getting called PRESENTLY because of company manning levels NOT because reserve is so great!!

Busboy

You're right. I can't argue with that...Because I can't understand what you wrote. But, I can guess.

Better strategy? This isn't a friggin' chess game. It's business! It's money!! It's simple!! The company will negotiate, in good faith, when they have to. When they know that it will cost them more, not to. That's all.

Do you think taking a better negotiator with you, when you go buy a Nintendo Wii, at Circuit City, is going to get you a better deal? No, of course not. Why? Because you have no bargaining power. Your negotiator, may be the smartest guy in the world. But, you're not going to get any better deal than the 16 yr old kid, waiting to buy it, behind you.

We have good lawyers working with the negotiating committee. We have never had any bargaining power.

Impact on us? Do you guys really think that our leadership didn't know what the "give up city purity and D/H commonality" agreement letter(sodomizer letter), would mean/do to us? Why do you think they waited until after the contract voting was over, to produce it? And, where was the outrage at our leadership, for that? There wasn't any. Because, as a whole, this group of pilots are either too naive to understand, or too apathetic to care.

The SIG and the dispute process, were to be the safety net that would protect us from too heinous of pairings. And, look what's happening. It's failing. Not because we didn't have better negotiators...But, because of the pilot group they negotiate for. Us. Well, not me. And, not most of the people on this forum. But, all the morons that can't see past their nose.

Again...Take a deep breath and ask yourself:

How did DL and UAL get their pre 9/11 contracts without the use of these vaunted outside negotiators?

I think you're looking the wrong direction. We need better leadership. Better, or stronger education. Not, more lawyers.

Daniel Larusso

Yup, besides better economic times they had stronger leadership and a far more committed crew force than we did during negotiations. Ya gotta walk the walk and get a little dirt under your nails to get what you want. Wearing pins and stickers and paying your dues is only the start....