Navy guy needs advice from cargo pilots
 

I am about 3 yrs from the end of my obligation, and have a few questions. If UPS/FedEx are hiring then, I'm considering that route. Is it worth me going out of pocket for a 757/767 type? Just did the ATP, and the VA will pay for 60% of a type. From what I've been told, I should be ballpark on the resume with time and ground jobs, so will the type make a difference? Does the Masters Degree I'm working on at Embry Riddle help at all? Also, how does the cargo side differ from what I've heard is a mostly negative picture at the majors today? I've just heard that cargo "is where you want to be". Any info is much appreciated.

Thanks

It's not the type rating, it's the actual experience in type that counts.

Military guys usually get the red carpet treatment anyway. You should get the interview by just checking the military box, what happens after that is more your personality not so much what type ratings you have.

Good luck

You'd be better off with a 737 type. Gives you the Southwest option.

RED CARPET TREATMENT? I must of missed that line. Ducgsxr, don't expect your military aviation to give you ANY preferential treatment in this industry.
Make sure you play the Navy game all the way till the last day because this side of the house is in chaos. If you're going to get a type get a 737. None of the U.S. cargo carriers require a type for a new hire. Also, get as much flight time as you can. As far as the masters, get it! You don't need it for an airline job, but don't burn your promotion bridges in the Navy. Three years is a long time and much can change. I've been out of the Air Force for 13 years and if I had it to do all over again I would have stayed in. Good luck.

Red

DUCGSXR

What do you fly in the Navy?

If you get a type, go with the 737. Will help at SWA should you go that route. Cargo is not immune, but much more insulated than pax carriers. It's a completely different business, lucky for us it happens to involve airplanes. Your Master's will help distinguish you, finish that for sure.

I've found that it's all about who you know. Make sure you keep networking with your Navy buds. Good luck!

737 type is the only one worth getting and mostly it is for the training and exposure to civilian way of doing business. Network all your old buds from the squadrons and anyone else you know who got hired. That is your best advantage. More flight time = better odds of getting looked at. Make sure your last tour is in the cockpit. They want recency of experience, of what ever kind that is. Don't hose your buddies, but RHIP and take the hours....

If you have a choice, fly a non-centerline thrust turboprop over centerline thrust fighter. Ground jobs don't mean a thing, just flight time and recommendations from pilots at the airline where you want to get hired.

A masters is fine, but mostly for a non-flying job. Best of luck. 3 years ought to be a much better time for hiring.

As fellow Navy who is UPS, 737 type only.
Get Masters for airline career backup and Navy career enhancement if so inclined.
UPS/Fedex is suited for Navy, the facilities are similiar. You will notice many industrial similiarities and would be used to the environment. (Very utility oriented). However, they both provide many choices on lifestyle like most airlines. Advantage: They make money and give a more stable career over most flying companies. Reality is that you would likely assimiliate at any airline and find the positives that work for you. At your point, I would consider UPS/FEDEX/SWA/Corporate/Fractional. Can always move around and refine choices as you get within 12 months of leaving Navy.
Also, recommend you strongly consider Navy Reserve or transfer to USAFR or ANG. Continued service provides many backup options in addition to leveraging all the time from AD into a another brick in the pension/medical plan (options) when you turn 60. Welcome aboard!

ducgsxr,

Salty is 100% accurate on this. The move to leave the military is like a card game where there is no limit to the amount of cards (options) you can be holding. Get as many in your hand as possible and then make your final decision. Do not burn the active duty bridge on the way out as it may be your best option at the time. Prepare with a suitable chunk of cash in the bank (will help supplement first year or two's pay).

Network to find as many bro's in the industry as you can and listen to what they say. Filter it with how long they have been at their respective companies and what that companies future looks like for a new hire.

Disregard those people on this forum who are posers or envious of the route you have taken.

Biff

737 type is the only type that means anything. I didn't even file for the 707 type I am entitled to since no one flies those civ wise. Start working on getting on with a reserve unit now, making contacts etc.

If you are at training command, thats a great option for reserve flying. Baseops.net is a good resource for the airforce reserve and guard side. Having a reserve/guard safety net makes it a hell of a lot easier to jump.

First Sea Duy was EP-3E. Now in the VT's and loving it.

Thanks for all of the info, gentlemen.

Mostly agree with Salty Dog also ...

Like others have said:
1. Make certain last Navy assignment is a flying job! This is REALLY important!
2. Not sure that Masters Degree or Ground Jobs make any difference at FedEx? I might not even mention it?
3. If you are not retiring from the Navy, the Reserves provide both additional current flight time and many airline connections for internal referrals. It's also a great safety net if you get furloughed (maybe laid off from a carrier that goes out of business?), or just have to survive first year pay and still be able to feed your family.
4. I suspect the airline picture will look quite different in 3 years than it does today. MY guess is there will be 2-3 less legacy carriers and with $100-150/barrel oil, the regionals could be in a major hurt locker also. Many guys on this forum bash Kit Darby's career seminars but I recommend going to one of them, especially if it's available in your local town.
5. Network, network, network ... keep track of where your Navy buds are and keep in touch with them (at least with Xmas cards) on a somewhat regular basis. You will not get hired at FedEx without recommendations from squadron mates that have actual flown with you! It was amazing how many long lost Navy buds called me AFTER I got hired at FedEx.
6. Seems like we have a bunch of former Blue Angels (interestingly, these guys seem to gravitate to flight management?) at FedEx and a bunch of F-14 and P-3 bubbas.
7. Network, network, network ... can't stress that enough.
8. Good luck :D

Having been around for awhile and seeing buds of mine at home that have other careers I've concluded Dental school is the way to go! Your not on call, make more money than the airlines do and don't get furloughed (or company file BK).

And almost everyone goes to a dentist for routine work, so there is no shortage of work.

Past...

As a retired Naval Aviator, I concur 100% with MaydayMark, but perhaps mortuary training is a good route, almost everybody will require their services at a point in their life. ;)

On a more serious note, if you enjoy instructing as you have indicated, make sure you get your CFI tickets before leaving the Navy, the notice of proposed rulemaking that should go into effect later this year that will make it a breeze to get all your CFI tickets for next to nothing. All good info here, but the best advice I ever got was to stay in long enough to retire (regular or reserve) and have a back up plan, and a back up plan for that, it has served me well in this chaotic industry.

If you're in the VT's, talk to some of the reservists running around. They will have some good info too...

Are you multi engine VT?

If not, it will drastically reduce your choices assuming you didnt get over 1000 hr PIC (A time) in the EP-3.

Or a Citation type, or a Lear 45 type, or....

100% civilian here, but it seems to me the guys that went to the reserves/guard had the best plan.

My uncle couldn't get in the AF guard after he got out, so switched to Army helos and ended up retiring out of it. His airline job was with a little company called UAL - so you can imagine how happy he is he got his military retirement.

We have one that was a union negotiator so that should help balance things out. I notice that with all the blue angels and AF 1 guys I come across, I never come across any claiming to have been Thunderbirds. Too embarrassed to go public :rolleyes:?

You have 3 years to go yet??? Thats an eternity in this business.

A type rating with no flight hours in that plane looks unusual and is a waste of time (except for SWA, as I understand). It doesn't matter if you show up on day one with a 757 type rating, the company will not assign you to a 757 based upon that nor with you get preferential treatment in training. My training partner in the 727 FE seat was a 727 LCA from another airline and he went through the entire training program like I did. Granted, he was bored and I was just a source of his amusement as he watched me flail around on the panel in training, but they didn't put him in the 727 just because he has the rating.

A 737 type rating might cast doubt upon your intentions when you interview with either FedEx or UPS (I presume) since neither company operates the 737. You might get around that in the interview by saying something like, "...I want to leave my options open..." But if you have a 737 type rating without flying one operationally, you're leaving yourself open for the interviewer to doubt your true intentions.

The two most important things for you, have been mentioned by other posters:
1. Fly, and have recent flying experience when you interview.
2. Have people in the company you want to interview with who have flown with you and will recommend you.

This far out (and with three years remaining, yes, you are a ways out--as a previous poster noted, a lot can happen in three years in this industry), monitor the industry, track the companies you want to work for, and keep talking to your like-minded squadron-mates to discuss issues and keep up to date with what's going on in the industry.

A personal recommendation from a current pilot employee, recent flying experience and meeting the company's requirements should be your focus. Don't waste money getting a type rating you don't need and which might actually work against you in certain circumstances. If you really have that kind of money to burn, take you wife to Paris for a long weekend--that will pay bigger dividends down the road.

Best wishes.

One more thing...

I don't have a backup career to flying, my professional education is in a career field that requires passing a physical exam similar to a pilot physical exam. I'm healthy as a horse, but I still worry that if I fail a physical some time down the road, I have no backup to this job.

Don't be like me. Use your educational benefits to get training in a non-flying career that you can do without passing a physical exam.

All great advice. I am single engine VT's right now, but left my last tour with 800 hrs PIC multi. Next (last) tour will likely be multi also, so should be fine. I'm gonna look into the dentist gig. I heard anesthesiologist is even better:) Most of our reservists are continental, with a few SWA guys. They say the same thing as my old man (retired USAir), "Do something else"... We'll see. Thanks again, as ya'll have been very helpful.

My dad and brother are both dentists and I would not trade places with them for anything. Looking in a bunch of stinking mouths of people who are scared to death all day long. You can have that. Just roll the dice and don't worry about it like me!

A good friend of mine is a high brow Cosmetic Dentist here in the Dallas area. Don't know how many times he has offered to trade occupations. Absolutely hates the Dentistry profession....

Flying for an airline is the BEST job in the world when things go right, but gut wrenching when it does not...

Our crew took a FDX van downtown OMA this morning on a 0530 unsuccessful quest for breakfast. With my superb driving skills (not!) I managed to cut off the ONE other dude on the downtown streets that morning and he was P1SSED! Beeped, glared, yelled, and gestured as I swerved back into my lane. We decided he must be on his way to an office job he hated and was mad at the world. (It wasn't like I was about to hit him...I just slowed him down a tad...) An hour an a half later, we as a crew were doing the CRM thing as we looked at our radar at the storms rolling in and making a go/wait decision. We decided to press, blasted off into the rain, and then vectored 150 degrees away from the storm dodging the worst of the build ups. We broke out on top around 10,000 between some towering cu and got our first good look at the morning sun. I couldnt' resist asking how our irate driver was feeling at that moment--but even though it was waaay early and we were dodging storms we were having fun. It is truely a Gift from God to like your work. I'm a lucky dude...

My advice is follow your heart, but let your head offer you a back up plan. Get some training in a plan B job you enjoy...medical, business, whatever...but don't be afraid to chase your dreams. I'd rather swing and miss than spend the next 20 years driving to an office going "what was I so afraid of....."

My two cents...worth even less than you paid for it....

Guy's I had the 737 type when I interviewed at FedEx. No one even mentioned it. I don't think they really cared. However, here's why I did it. First, the GI Bill was paying for it and I could get my ATP at the same time. With the GI Bill it cost about $2,500 extra out of pocket to get the 737 type in addition to the ATP. Second, I had no civilian time and very little time flying with the kind of auto-pilot these civilian airplanes use. I figured a little time flying the civilian way couldn't hurt. And I'm glad I did, I had no idea civilian and military flying were so drastically different.

Same here w/ UPS. They did ask if I'd interviewed anywhere else or had apps out. I told them I had interviewed w/ SWA but wasn't offered employment. It didn't seem to matter since I started GS at Brown about a month later...

So the movie "Horny Dental Assistant Hotties" was not the real deal? Jeez, I thought being a dentist was one big orgy! Fooled by Hollywood again, I hate when that happens!

One option on the 7-3 type, and that is to get it in conjunction with your ATP. In addition, the 737 type rating schoolhouses (like Higher Power) have all the gouge and do most of the work for getting the GI bill to cover 60% of the cost, which knocks the price down to what you'd pay at ATP or somewhere else to get the it done without the type.

HTH
Sponge

Of course if you did become a dentist you could change your avatar to Bill Murray in "Little Shop of Horrors". :D

Hey, you asked for it!

YouTube - Little Shop of Horrors - Dentist Song

Things look pretty good from mine and your vantage point. A little different view when your just starting out. My buds don't have to worry about being on the bottom of the list of possibly the next company to file BK or the next company to liquidate when your half way up the list. They don't have to worry about starting over.

I'm sure lots of people would like to swap with senior guys at FedEx but not to many would like to swap with a junior TWA guy or Indy air or any number of other airlines.

There are lots of advantages to other jobs besides the ones you and I have. One of the biggest is Options! You and I will dance with the one who brought us till the end. We don't have options.

When all is said and done, you have to worry about your family, your retirement and numerous other personal issues. You have to decide how best to take care of those concerns and if you can do that with a much more stable and lucrative career than a lot of our brethren and still be able to buy a Pitts and pull lots of G's then you should consider those options.

YMMV,

Past....

I think MD10PLT makes an excellent point, one that I missed: if buying big jet sim time or getting a type rating increases your self-confidence and comfort with the civilian flying experience, then by all means do it. I do think being confident, and comfortable during the interview is a huge advantage for any interviewee and worth the cost. And getting it along with the certificate if that's the road you want to take seems like a good deal.

I'm glad to hear others interviewed with a 737 type rating and did not have their intentions questioned.

FDXFLYR -

I've been reading in this thread about having the 737 type rating and what a prospective employer who does fly that type of aircraft might make about intentions. Is it the feeling in the industry that having multiple resumes in at different companies or having multiple plans is a bad thing for a person?

USMCFLYR

Hi USMCFLYR,

No, not at all. I think everyone assumes pilots have applications out with a lot of different airlines. My initial comment was based upon advice I was given when I was making the move from military to civilian flying and I was asking the same question: "maybe having a type rating would improve my chances of getting a job?" It's just that in our company, having a type rating is not a requirement and there was a time (maybe not so much anymore) when interviewers would really grill a candidate about their career goals to try to prevent spending a lot of money on hiring and training costs on a new hire who intends to leave for another airline when the opportunity presents itself. It would be difficult to say that FedEx or UPS are your number one choice if you show up with a 737 type rating without time in the aircraft. The conclusion being that you obviously spent big bucks for a rating for some reason and since neither FedEx nor UPS operate that airplane and assuming people don't go around throwing money at type ratings, then maybe an airline that requires a type rating (SWA?) is the guy's real goal.

But it would be easily explained (if asked, but it sounds from other posters that it isn't being asked now) as leaving your options open, wanting to get some big jet experience or just increasing ones' comfort factor in the sim.

Well it did almost cost my dad his marriage. Maybe there is more to it? Never thought of the porn angle with the chair and everything....

Real men don't sweat the small stuff.

Its been a few years now, but I had the 737 type, no time in the jet, and was in the pool at SW when I interviewed at FedEx. I was prepared to talk about it, it never came up. FedEx is pretty confident that if you get hired here you will likely stick around. If not, they won't have any trouble filling the spot.

Things could have changed, but I wouldn't not get the type because I thought FedEx wouldn't hire me because of it.

FJ

I was worked over by HR for having that type and no time. They know why you have it.

They asked me if I interviewed there...etc.

I would guess the military guys are much better off vs me. They are able to justify VA benefits paying for it vs me shelling out cash for it.

Obviously, they were not that concerned with it, because they hired me anyways.