Sober up before hitting send...
 

Latest email to crew force about FO's grabbing the controls from Captains is a little strange to say the least. Why don't we just have whoever's leg it is be the captain too. That way nobody's feelings get hurt. I thought it was always pretty much a given that a good FO would be heads up enough to do something before I try to kill him.

Didn't get this email. When did it come out?

It is out there for the FedEx MD-11 crew force from standards.

... so, what happens then if a downgraded Capt is sitting in the right seat ... What then?

.....what does the e-mail state?

Never mind. I found it on the website.

I would suspect the same result if self-preservation is involved.

I thought that was part of the F/O's job.

If you are seated at a set of controls and you are about to bend metal and/or die, you get an active vote, period. The "...you better be right" statement is a terrible statement to make to any crew member on any aircraft, ever. They talk about that one on day one of safety school.

Ditto.

I had to read that several times, because I couldn'd believe someone would actually say that.

I had a very good Commander once tell me. Do what ever it takes to fly safe, and if we have to have a discussion about it; two guys safe on the ground gives you a pretty good position to argue from.

Link? can't find it.

A Captains only maybe?

Training and Standards, MD11, Comm Updates


When I read it, I could not believe that it passed the scrutiny required to make it onto the company website, but then again.........:eek:

It's not always easy to express your thoughts on paper or via an email for that matter but I pretty much understand his "intent" in the latest Comm Update. Basically, if you feel the flight path of the aircraft is not going as planned then simply announce a "Go-around" and discuss it in a safer environment.

I'm not really understanding why people are getting their feathers so ruffled? Safety first, right? Ego's left on the ground, right?

Message I got out of it was that F/O's can speak up if they see errors, but in reality, they are really just along for the ride --- ie. F/O's are no more than "B......'in Betty".

Not sure if that was their intent, but that's the "wink, wink" message that I got out of it.

(Note: May have gone to Capt's only. I haven't spoken with an F/O who has seen it)

Found it, thanks.

Interesting.

Training and Standards, MD-11, Comm Updates.

In a previous life, I used to brief the greenest co-pilot/First Officer: "I am very fallible and have made many mistakes in the past and will definitely make many more in the future. You are a qualified pilot. Do what it takes to save us both. If we lose this gig, we can always pump gas, but at least we'll be alive."

Fly safe, folks.

[And to paraphrase the old home defense saw, "Better to be judged by 12 ACPs than carried by six"]

Not as interesting as your new avatar!! :D

Giddy Up!!!!

I'm an F/O and it was sent to me. The overall intent was on point except the "you better be right" comment. Just my opinion though.

Agreed. The "you better be right" basically negates anything said before it. It chills and intimidates leading to indecision at precisely the wrong moment.

"Go around" probably won't be questioned too much. Better than fighting over the yoke at 50 feet

I didn't think the email was strange at all. It was most likely written as a result of tons of calls/emails that standards received from mental midgets that can't apply a touch of common sense. Perhaps it was an attempt to squelch any more idiotic questions. All it did was reaffirm the way it has always been here, and more than likely borne out of the aftermath of Narita. Give the guy a break...

IMHO anyway.

Just finished CMV 2. I have to agree, give the guy a break! What the FCIF does is give FO's and Captains a procedure to follow if the FO doesn't like the approach. "Go around" is a very definite and unequivocal command. If the Captain is so disoriented he can't perform a go-around then take the airplane. It does happen. And it's always been that way.

What I got out of CMV 2 and ATT as a Captain is we need to be more ready to a: take the airplane, b: command the go-around, or c: take the airplane and go-around. I'm sure you can connect the dots...

FWIW

Oh my...my.....I was already going to have loads of fun from the cheap seats when I excess to the right seat next month......this just gives me....oh so much more....;) Hope I get to yank gear for fr8hauler ;):D

Just did not realize this was a problem. I never had a problem as an FO nor have I had any problems with any FO's speaking up around here. This whole topic is kind of like what we already know we should do as professional pilots. We all know to speak up if something is wrong and if someone vapor locks with a heart attack at 50 feet to take the airplane before you crash. I guess it needs to come from standards, be in the form as an FCIF and briefed along with the other 150 items we are supposed to brief prior to takeoff...

I'm an F/O and I got the FCIF.
I wasn't particularly offended by it. I think it's kind of moronic for F/Os to say "..now I can take the aircraft from the captain if he's not following my corrections." That has always been the case if you're about to bend metal or die. I also think the part about 'you better be right' could have been left unspoken/unwritten. I think we're all smart enough to know that one too.

I'm sure that 99.5% of F/Os wouldn't 'take the airplane' or fight in the cockpit for any reason short of a life threatening situation. But remember, Standards deals with that other 0.5%. I just took it to mean they were clarifying the 3 step process, which in itself was I'm sure a response to NRT.

Fire away.

Maybe this is in response to the "puppet lady" returning to the line! Must be rough for the Bus f/o's right now.

Speaking of Narita, does anyone have any idea when we will see anything official about the accident?

Think you don't like the FO saving the day.....Wait 'til the SO takes the plane. Now that's going to be fun.

No that's funny!

Who was that character on Twin Peaks, the Log Lady? "Ask my log a question".:eek:

Don't be so sure we are all smart enough to know. Very good bud of mine used to be in standards and would share some of the moronic emails/phone calls from line pilots (mostly Captains). It appeared to me that they have to be held by the hand and led about our route structure. Unable to make a decision or an interpretation without specific and exhaustive guidance.

yeah, never.

I can't believe there are actually guys defending this Comm Update.

The Comm Updated which started all this basically said we at FedEx have a problem with FOs not being assertive enough. The last time I went through ground school they said they same thing.

It looks like to me they are getting their point across and a few "old school" Capts got their feathers ruffled. Instead of telling these guys the world has changed and it's probably time for them to move on. Standards caved to the old school approach and told the FOs to go back to; "shut up and color" and if you do speak up "you had better be right"

If any of these Capts actually believed the tongue in cheek comments by some of these FOs, which caused this latest Comm Update, they really do need the "special" CRM class.

That is a good point. I take everything I said back. I guess standards really does need to spell it all out!

When do you have RGS?

I will enjoy having you as the pilot monitoring when we fly!:)

Ha, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about Normy!

There's only one way anyone will ever be sure that you'd have been right -- go ahead and let the Capt bend metal. Then you can unequivocally say, "Yep, I'd have been right". I'm not suggesting that's the right answer, as my life is far more valuable to me than my job.

We all know how it would go at any "long table without a glass of water", as they're so fond of saying at purple. If the FO and the Capt are both sitting there -- the FO is wrong. Actually both operating crewmembers are wrong, the FO is just more wrong.

I'm more from the school that was mentioned earlier in the thread. If we're all sitting here talking about it, whatever you did wasn't likely the worst option.

PIPE

I just thought it was a catchy title. Normy on the other hand needs to lay off the meth.