Best route to flying cargo
06-23-2005 | 07:57 PM
#1
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New Hire
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From: Student Pilot
Best route to flying cargo
Greetings.
I'm new to this forum, but have read much of it and am very pleased with what I've found. This seems to be substantive forum with good information and contributors.
I'll inaugurate my presence on this forum with the standard question. I am 18 years old, starting my second year of college (English major) and am currently a student pilot with a little under 50 hours. I hope to finish up my PPL soon. I've always wanted to be a pilot, and I decided many years ago that I want to fly for FedEx. I'm looking for the best way to get to that point, and more specifically the best way to get a flying job that will serve well to expedite my route to FedEx. I was offered ROTC scholarships by the military, but those were promptly revoked when I mentioned my color vision deficiency. As such, I'm going the civilian route, and am currently looking at Delta Connection Academy in hopes that I will be able to quickly begin building jet time. Does anyone have any thoughts to share on that? Also, what it be more advantageous for me to start with an actual cargo airline, IE Mountain Air, or is flight time flight time?
Any advice is greatly appreciated and well-received. Thanks for the time and attention.
Elvis
I'm new to this forum, but have read much of it and am very pleased with what I've found. This seems to be substantive forum with good information and contributors.
I'll inaugurate my presence on this forum with the standard question. I am 18 years old, starting my second year of college (English major) and am currently a student pilot with a little under 50 hours. I hope to finish up my PPL soon. I've always wanted to be a pilot, and I decided many years ago that I want to fly for FedEx. I'm looking for the best way to get to that point, and more specifically the best way to get a flying job that will serve well to expedite my route to FedEx. I was offered ROTC scholarships by the military, but those were promptly revoked when I mentioned my color vision deficiency. As such, I'm going the civilian route, and am currently looking at Delta Connection Academy in hopes that I will be able to quickly begin building jet time. Does anyone have any thoughts to share on that? Also, what it be more advantageous for me to start with an actual cargo airline, IE Mountain Air, or is flight time flight time?
Any advice is greatly appreciated and well-received. Thanks for the time and attention.
Elvis
06-26-2005 | 05:29 AM
#2
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Under the Frog
The Delta Connection route would be a good choice, provided that you can afford it (both now and later, when you're making payments on your loan- my roomate's making payments on a $100k loan while making about $1500-2000 a month. Dosen't leave much in the way of spending cash.) A friend of mine is flying with Sh!taqua; he's got a 23 year old upgrading to the left seat in the E-170 out of ORD in his class- the guy's been there for 13 months.
However you get there, you need 2 things- PIC turbine time, and hopefully a few recommendations. Whatever you do, DO NOT fly for Mountain Air Cargo or any other FedEX feeder- you'll end up inadvertantly blacklisting yourself from FedEX mainline. Not that they're bad companies (I worked for MAC, and they sent me to South America, which was awesome) it's just that the mainline pilots really don't like to hire the feeder guys. When I left 9 months ago, I had no possible flowthrough of any kind to mainline.
Of course, all of this could change, and usually does.
I would also suggest throwing bags for FedEX- the pay is good, and it gets your foot in the door- however, I'm not sure how much weight this would add to your application down the road (I do know that it works at UPS, however).
NETWORK- it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know. Don't be one of these d!cks who think it's important to memorize the FAR/AIM and the POH- they're no fun to fly with, and the big boys are usually more interested in your personality rather than your technical and legal prowess. (I recently flew with such a guy- he was a total @$$hole in the cockpit, and he admitted to being overly anal. He was on his way to AirTran until his reputation got there first- they ended up turning him down. No one likes flying with an @$$hole; luckily they usually get weeded out at the regional level.)
My regional interview was heavily technical; my recent cargo interview (for a DC-10) didn't have a single technical question that I remember. They were more interested in knowing if they can spend 8 hours in a cockpit with me and how I'd act on a layover. (I got the job- 2100 TT, Multi Comm only, no ATP)
Get your time up- get that multi time. Check out Sh!taqua- they're the *****s of the sky, but you get really quick upgrade times. QOL isn't as good as say, ASA or Comair, but you're young and can afford to live off of Ramen Noodles while living in a 3 bedroom apartment with 8 guys.
All that being said, cargo is the way to go- boxes don't ***** when you fly through a thunderstorm. People can choose to stay home, but boxes ALWAYS have to get shipped. No sitting around for 45 minutes with a deferred APU and no AC waiting for a gate to open, trying to explain to the pax why they're dying of heat stroke... The flying at night can suck, but it does have some benefits- you'll figure those out as you get there.
However you get there, you need 2 things- PIC turbine time, and hopefully a few recommendations. Whatever you do, DO NOT fly for Mountain Air Cargo or any other FedEX feeder- you'll end up inadvertantly blacklisting yourself from FedEX mainline. Not that they're bad companies (I worked for MAC, and they sent me to South America, which was awesome) it's just that the mainline pilots really don't like to hire the feeder guys. When I left 9 months ago, I had no possible flowthrough of any kind to mainline.
Of course, all of this could change, and usually does.
I would also suggest throwing bags for FedEX- the pay is good, and it gets your foot in the door- however, I'm not sure how much weight this would add to your application down the road (I do know that it works at UPS, however).
NETWORK- it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know. Don't be one of these d!cks who think it's important to memorize the FAR/AIM and the POH- they're no fun to fly with, and the big boys are usually more interested in your personality rather than your technical and legal prowess. (I recently flew with such a guy- he was a total @$$hole in the cockpit, and he admitted to being overly anal. He was on his way to AirTran until his reputation got there first- they ended up turning him down. No one likes flying with an @$$hole; luckily they usually get weeded out at the regional level.)
My regional interview was heavily technical; my recent cargo interview (for a DC-10) didn't have a single technical question that I remember. They were more interested in knowing if they can spend 8 hours in a cockpit with me and how I'd act on a layover. (I got the job- 2100 TT, Multi Comm only, no ATP)
Get your time up- get that multi time. Check out Sh!taqua- they're the *****s of the sky, but you get really quick upgrade times. QOL isn't as good as say, ASA or Comair, but you're young and can afford to live off of Ramen Noodles while living in a 3 bedroom apartment with 8 guys.
All that being said, cargo is the way to go- boxes don't ***** when you fly through a thunderstorm. People can choose to stay home, but boxes ALWAYS have to get shipped. No sitting around for 45 minutes with a deferred APU and no AC waiting for a gate to open, trying to explain to the pax why they're dying of heat stroke... The flying at night can suck, but it does have some benefits- you'll figure those out as you get there.
06-28-2005 | 12:44 PM
#5
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Gringo
Sorry to hear you weren't able to get on at Fedex. Keep trying! But Feeder guys are not blacklisted here. I was in class just over a year ago with a Feeder guy- MAC as a matter of fact- and have met many others. And I have met MANY pilots that worked on the ramp/drove a truck first, too.
TRUE there is no flow thru- it isn't the same company at all. There never was. The only thing the same is the transloading, and, oh yeah, the purple paint on the outside. Working at a Feeder is the same as working for airline X- no extra benefit or advantage. I hope they didn't tell you otherwise.
Flow thru is a mutual agreement between two pilot groups and their companies, and usually involves a wholly owned subsidiary. What most Feeder pilots and their companies do is contract work for Fedex. And as you know, Fedex LOVES to hire contractors to do everything- loading, flying, Mx, you name it. (Fred is a cheap-o- that's how he got the company to be so successful. This also helps keep unions out.)
A lot of Feeder guys that have had a tough time getting on at Fedex had other issues- lack of a 4 year degree, bad attitude, or didn't have the 3 (now) required recommendations from pilots at Fedex they have flown with. And the 1000 PIC turbine requirement has to be multi-turboprop or single/multi-jet- so Caravans don't count. If you have been around long enough in this industry, you must know that sometimes really good people don't always get the job. Sometimes I am conviced the stars all have to be aligned with Jupiter in orbit for it to happen....
I have heard Feeder guys complain about the way maniline guys treat them. Yeah, we got some weird ones that I wouldn't want to take to meet the Queen. Sorry for those few. But I have never seen it myself. It is really hard to be on your best junior prom behavior at 4 am with a leg to go when we run into the Feeder guys- they are usually as strung out as us. And always nice.
NO ONE in the hiring department looks down on, and blacklists any Feeder guy. I know people that do interviews and this is not true. They all have a fair chance, if they meet the requirements and get their in personal face to face intro with a CP.
Let me know if you need some info, or help finding a Fedex pilot.
To Elvis-
Do whatever you have to- PIC turbine is very valuable. Make contacts, keep working towards a degree, and look at passenger carriers and corporate, too- not just the cargo. Good luck!
Sorry to hear you weren't able to get on at Fedex. Keep trying! But Feeder guys are not blacklisted here. I was in class just over a year ago with a Feeder guy- MAC as a matter of fact- and have met many others. And I have met MANY pilots that worked on the ramp/drove a truck first, too.
TRUE there is no flow thru- it isn't the same company at all. There never was. The only thing the same is the transloading, and, oh yeah, the purple paint on the outside. Working at a Feeder is the same as working for airline X- no extra benefit or advantage. I hope they didn't tell you otherwise.
Flow thru is a mutual agreement between two pilot groups and their companies, and usually involves a wholly owned subsidiary. What most Feeder pilots and their companies do is contract work for Fedex. And as you know, Fedex LOVES to hire contractors to do everything- loading, flying, Mx, you name it. (Fred is a cheap-o- that's how he got the company to be so successful. This also helps keep unions out.)
A lot of Feeder guys that have had a tough time getting on at Fedex had other issues- lack of a 4 year degree, bad attitude, or didn't have the 3 (now) required recommendations from pilots at Fedex they have flown with. And the 1000 PIC turbine requirement has to be multi-turboprop or single/multi-jet- so Caravans don't count. If you have been around long enough in this industry, you must know that sometimes really good people don't always get the job. Sometimes I am conviced the stars all have to be aligned with Jupiter in orbit for it to happen....
I have heard Feeder guys complain about the way maniline guys treat them. Yeah, we got some weird ones that I wouldn't want to take to meet the Queen. Sorry for those few. But I have never seen it myself. It is really hard to be on your best junior prom behavior at 4 am with a leg to go when we run into the Feeder guys- they are usually as strung out as us. And always nice.
NO ONE in the hiring department looks down on, and blacklists any Feeder guy. I know people that do interviews and this is not true. They all have a fair chance, if they meet the requirements and get their in personal face to face intro with a CP.
Let me know if you need some info, or help finding a Fedex pilot.
To Elvis-
Do whatever you have to- PIC turbine is very valuable. Make contacts, keep working towards a degree, and look at passenger carriers and corporate, too- not just the cargo. Good luck!
Last edited by FedEx1; 06-28-2005 at 12:47 PM.
06-28-2005 | 07:50 PM
#6
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Student Pilot
Thanks!
Thank you for your assistance and encouragement. It's good to hear this information from those in the industry. Kinda reassures me that it can be done LOL. I'm also looking at, and leaning towards ATP, but I'm gonna go visit DCA. Any thoughts on that will most certainly be welcome. At any rate, I'll do what is needed. Thanks again for your replies.
06-29-2005 | 04:42 AM
#7
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Under the Frog
That is good news- guess I should have gotten the info from someone who knew what they were talking about. Come to think about it, most of the guys who were complaining about not going over to FedEX WERE those with bad attitudes and no degrees- funny how these guys end up staying at the cargo or passenger regional level...
I probably WILL end up throwing bags for a year once I get down to MIA... see what my schedule allows me...
BTW, just curious, what's the seniority like to get over to the Phillipines? Are they putting any new hires over there?
And ELVIS, I'm not sure if you ment you're going to the ATP school or if you're going to get your ATP rating... the school seems like a good one- I never went there, but had lots of friends who did, and they enjoyed it immensely. As for the RATING, depending on the market when you finally get there, you may not need it- I never got one (I'll let my company pay for it when I upgrade)
And whatever you do, finish your degree. I can't tell you how many Captains I fly with are trying to finish their degrees so they can get better jobs- kinda hard to do when you're supporting a wife and kids and a mortgage...
I probably WILL end up throwing bags for a year once I get down to MIA... see what my schedule allows me...
BTW, just curious, what's the seniority like to get over to the Phillipines? Are they putting any new hires over there?
And ELVIS, I'm not sure if you ment you're going to the ATP school or if you're going to get your ATP rating... the school seems like a good one- I never went there, but had lots of friends who did, and they enjoyed it immensely. As for the RATING, depending on the market when you finally get there, you may not need it- I never got one (I'll let my company pay for it when I upgrade)
And whatever you do, finish your degree. I can't tell you how many Captains I fly with are trying to finish their degrees so they can get better jobs- kinda hard to do when you're supporting a wife and kids and a mortgage...
06-29-2005 | 08:22 AM
#8
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 66
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From: A300 CA
Gringo,
Subic tends to go junior on the FO side, but usually not junior enough for a new hire. I'd say probably 6 months to a year to get a bid for Subic and then another 6 months or so waiting for a class date. It's all dependent, however, on movement of pilots already there -- it's a very small base, so if nobody moves then there's no vacancy to fill.
Z
Subic tends to go junior on the FO side, but usually not junior enough for a new hire. I'd say probably 6 months to a year to get a bid for Subic and then another 6 months or so waiting for a class date. It's all dependent, however, on movement of pilots already there -- it's a very small base, so if nobody moves then there's no vacancy to fill.
Z
06-29-2005 | 12:23 PM
#9
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Yeah, seat bids and openings are always in motion.... The last seat bid that came out in Feb had SFS f/o's in training 4 weeks later. Two newhires this spring got to go to Subic, too. But there is no way to tell where people will bid when you get here- someone has to move out or up for you to get in there.
Plan for the worst- a few years in the back of the Boeing- and hope for the best- widebody in less than a year. It is all worth it in the end. Let me tell you, the WORST day here is better than the best day at some other places I have been at.
Elvis:
I am not sure I advocate going into extreme debt to be a pilot. It may take you longer, but try to pay for as much as you can up front. Otherwise, you will be paying off the debt for a very long time. It will take a long time to get a job that pays well enough to pay it back, and gain the seniority to get the higher salaries. Do whatever it takes- deliver pizza, get some college done at the JC level, wash the planes at the FBO, whatever.
Fedex1
Plan for the worst- a few years in the back of the Boeing- and hope for the best- widebody in less than a year. It is all worth it in the end. Let me tell you, the WORST day here is better than the best day at some other places I have been at.
Elvis:
I am not sure I advocate going into extreme debt to be a pilot. It may take you longer, but try to pay for as much as you can up front. Otherwise, you will be paying off the debt for a very long time. It will take a long time to get a job that pays well enough to pay it back, and gain the seniority to get the higher salaries. Do whatever it takes- deliver pizza, get some college done at the JC level, wash the planes at the FBO, whatever.
Fedex1
07-02-2005 | 07:50 AM
#10
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 238
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From: 777 bound!
I agree with what FedEx1 said...
I was one of those "feeder" guys; Empire. And I know of one other guy in the ANC domicile that also was a feeder guy from Empire. I've also met one or two other guys out on the road who were from either MAC, or Empire. Not very many of us, but there are a few. Good luck to all you guys.
I was one of those "feeder" guys; Empire. And I know of one other guy in the ANC domicile that also was a feeder guy from Empire. I've also met one or two other guys out on the road who were from either MAC, or Empire. Not very many of us, but there are a few. Good luck to all you guys.
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