Ditto. I was ****ed about the HKG LOA, but that was the OLD NC/MEC. I'm very interested in what our current NC has come up with, we still need to read the details fellows.

There is a lot of interesting speculation on what, and how much, re: the company offered and the union thinks is OK. Just wait a little longer than (we'll) have a real target to throw the grenades at. :eek: I'm sure if the union/company floats a real turd, you will hear the cries here first to flush it. Either way, it will have to be a real under performer to get less than 50% of this pilot force to not sign off on it. :(

No, you don't vote yes to preserve MEC or NC jobs. You vote yes or no on the merits of the TA.

But you also have to realize that when the NC presents a TA to the MEC, and the MEC presents the TA to the membership with a recommendation to approve, they're saying "This is a good deal", or at least "This is the best we can do". A subsequent rejection by the membership is a vote of no confidence in the MEC/NC's judgement, and a message to the company that "This NC doesn't really speak for me." At that point, you need a new NC at a minimum (to maintain credibility with the management negotiators), and possibly a new MEC, depending on the size of the disconnect between MEC and membership.

So you fire the 3rd assistant traveling secretary and go back in and say wasn’t good enough boys now how about a recurring pay rate increase while the contract is amendable like those guys at UPS get.

This is just business right, if Fred cant come to a deal with Lands End he may or may not fire the team that couldn’t close the deal. Some deals cant be closed and Fred recognizes this. I think we can recognize this too. Does Fred fire his negotiating team because they lose face with the union?

And as far as “cant we just wait until we see a TA”? No. Speculation is fun. :)

Fred sends his negotiating team in to Land's End with a set of marching orders. If they can't come to a deal with Land's End that meets Fred's marching orders, then that's not the fault of his team. However, if his team DOES sign a deal that's NOT within the bounds of Fred's marching orders, then yes he does fire them.

In our case, we sent the NC in with a set of marching orders (survey's, etc). They negotiate with those marching orders in mind ("the membership will NEVER approve a TA that reduces vacation"), and we expect that any TA they come back with will be ratifiable by the membership. If it's not ratifiable, then the NC seriously doesn't understand the membership's wishes. And the next time that NC comes to the table and says "we can't touch vacation", management says "How do you know? You don't seem to have a very good read on your constituents."

Or they go back in and say see we told you it wouldnt pass unless it had a perpetual raises and an end to 4a2b. Now how about we get down to business.

For the 1st time in history management wants a contract more than Alpa, sure hope we dont blow it.

If the management thinks ALPA can discern anything from the bogus surveys then we should be able steamroll them easy.

And if that's the case, I'd expect to see the TA presented without a recommendation. If there IS a recommendation to approve, then your above scenario doesn't pertain.

I disagree because I think your answer ignores what management is doing. I think management knows they can stonewall us because we have always just accepted what they gave us as the best deal possible. The NC does the best they can but if management stops at something well above what is their bottom line but says that's their bottom line, then our NC has no choice but to come back to the membership with their "best" offer. It's then up to us to call BS and send the NC back to the table. That's when management will decide to either stick to their guns and hope we capitulate or worry about a strike.

I think that whatever the NC comes to us with, it will be way less than we deserve and no where close to what management can afford. Our answer ought to be a resounding NO--reject the TA and send the NC back to the table. That Gentlemen, is the only way this management team will ever pay us what we deserve and are worth.

To reply upon the NC to get to management's bottom line is a huge error in judgment, I think.

Not sure how they figure the % increases either. The NC probably knows how they are figured.

With the last TA ('06) it appeared that the medical cap increase and annual pay % increases were similar to what the rest of the company was getting. Looking at similar monetary areas non-union employees have (outside our CBA areas), the company doesn't appear to give the pilots anything they can't afford to give to the rest of the company. Other employees got the cap raised on health ins same as we did. Their average pay increase for other employees was about 3.4%, our rates averaged about 3.4%.

I think the signing bonus is tied to how long we've gone w/o an annual pay raise ('09, DOS+36) to expected date of signing (lost pay due to no % increase since DOS+36). I would take a guess that the WB Capt's to be about $12k. We'll know for sure in 1-2 weeks.

Last raise was Nov 09. So, the only raise we would be missing was Nov '10. That's only a few months ago. I think your $12K guess is off just a little bit. Probably closer to $2,000 :rolleyes: