Wrong.

A no vote sends a the message that the negotiating committee and the MEC do not know the minds of the pilot group, and therefore have no place negotiating a contract in the first place. Whether this is true or whether this due to a failure of communication won't matter.

For any meaningful neg to go forward would probably require an new neg committee and possibly MEC...tick..tock..tick...tock no leverage just wasted time, and time is money.

I know many of the righteous and angry folk on here will jump on the first line as being exactly the message they want. Still doesn't make it a smart or prudent choice. Putting your mad before money.

Have you seen any data on how this new 4A2b LOA will change anything. Why doesnt the NC tell us how much more money the Bus and 72 Bidpacks would have had if these rules were in effect. They wont cause the answer is not much. The 85% rule and under 100 seat rule will allow them to schedule us under 4A2b almost exactly like they did last time.

Which I guess is good news for you and the other 100 hour a 4A2b month hkg bubbas.

This paragragh allows them to establish a new FDA in addition or replacing the ones listed above (HKG, CGN, CDG). MEC Chairman has to agree.

I just thought it was noteworthy since (ground) labor costs are a lot cheaper in Spain than in the other countries mentioned. If I were in those positions, I would sure look at Spain as a jumping off point for places in Africa (the "A" in EMEA).


FDA LOA , A.2.
Great Britain, Ireland, Spain, the Netherlands, or Belgium.

OK, I'll buy that...
tx for the clarification!

This has been asked before.

Why is the company willing to make this agreement?? They love it. They get their FDAs.

The company knows the "time value of money" just like we do and the only reason they are giving the 3% raise to us now is that getting the FDAs is a ridiculously great deal for them.

Wrong. I support the negotiating committee. I don't support the LOA. I don't want them to have carte blanche and be able to negotiate and approve a TA. The membership (us) have that right. There is no need to fire them, just send them back to the table. If they choose to quit, so be it. I hope they don't.

Time is money? Man, I've heard more about Time Value of Money since a college econ class. What's it worth? Let's say that a captain will make an extra 7K/year from the LOA (less for an FO). Maybe 5K/year after taxes. Let's say that it takes 3 years to get a contract.

History says we will get back pay. Probably equal to 3%/year based on the past. So what is the time value of this 15K? There are assumptions that need to be made to make a guess, but it will most likely be extremely small. So we are willing to gut our US based bidpacks for this chump change?

1. I would be happy to see the new safety programs as a stand alone issue. They should be.

2. Per diem increase. This is real chump change.

3. Afghanistan override. Unless you are a pathfinder pilot, odds are that this will be worth virtually nothing.

4. 4.A.2.b. You think this is adequate?

5. So it comes back to the Time Value of a 3% raise. I'd rather keep SIBA flying and have US based pilots doing the international flying that will be picked up by the FDAs. If you aren't planning on bidding an FDA, this is a terrible deal.

What if it is not that the FDA is such a great deal for them, but they have other motivation?

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ca...-benefits.html

The TA is only for 1 year with an option for a second year. Where are you getting this no one will be able to figure out until Aug 2013 stuff from?

Where are you getting that the MEC decided that 3% was enough to buy votes? That's a pretty strong accusation.

So, only the APC guys can try a hard sell?

Your agenda seems to be to skew the facts to convince people to vote the way you want them to.

Search these threads you will find plenty of guys that think we have to wait until 2013 to see how the nprm effects us. I think we only have to wait 4 months. You and the Mec think we need to wait 12-24 months.

Did you read the 1st NC update. The FDA LOA was agreed to. The Union thought no way it would pass because of the 4A2b bad taste. They thought they needed to get a little love for everyone. Sounds like 3% to me. Unless you think we were all clamoring for Sec 18.

I admit I am trying to sway, Gunter is the one that thinks this is evil. The MEC is within their rights to say they arent going to push this right before they push this TA. But dont expect me to ignore it.

Ptarmigan,

Please let me know what that motivation may be. The company doesn't give away money. Inform me, I'd really like to know.

For the vast majority of us, the FDAs are a give back. I suggest you browse the MD-11, Airbus, and 757 bidpacks. How many of the double deadhead pairings will remain? If the company bases MD-10s in Asia, who's going to fly intra Asia? Many of the longer trips (single commuter lines) fly intra Asia.

No matter what you fly, you'll probably see less of it if you stay based in the US. And that is the vast majority of us. When the company needs a replacement pilot in Asia, they DH crews from the states. I've done some of these. In one quick trip, you could more than make up your 3% raise. They won't be DH'ing US based crews to NRT if they need pilots. The company usually reassigns other pilots, and this usually makes them more money. One or two guys sick in the field often causes a domino effect where several pilots make extra money.

While we give many of our best pairings, we get Time Value of Money on a 3% raise. What does this actually amount to?

What if we vote it down? I'm not concerned with the company getting mad at us, it's just business. 4.A.2.b. was business. I don't think we are going to get that money back, but there are various low cost items that could be included that don't include Hours of Service. Giving up some of the best parts of the bidpack are worth more than Time Value of a 3% raise. I'm not sure why you think this is the best that we can do.

We don't need an extension, we just need to negotiate in good faith. The NPRM should be published this year. Peak season will come afterwards. We will be undermanned. Let's negotiate a full contract and complete this process for a few years.

We can disagree about the FDA leverage. Do yourself a favor and review the bidpack. See how much it costs the company to fly the normal schedule. Check DH costs, credit hours paid to deadhead, and lack of productivity. And what happens if things go wrong? A weather event, sick in the field, added flights, etc. It is worth a lot of money. It also provides some of the very best flying we do at this company. It's worth more than a few pennies in our pockets now when we will get it later anyway..... Try looking at the big picture...