Tony - as much as I sometimes ardently disagree with you I really appreciate your expertise on this forum - thx for taking the time to explain things far clearer than the CBA or CE.

I wouldn't say that at all.

I would say it depends on how many pilots bid HKG FO.

If The Company decides they want 10 more HKG FOs and only 10 people bid it, nobody will get FEPP. If 100 bid it, there's a good potential that 90 will qualify for FEPP.

Have you looked at the seniority number of the "Tail End Chairlie" in Hong Kong? We've been sending new hires there, so there are only 63 pilots junior to him, and 9 of them are in EUR, and 30 are already on the B-757 FO seat. I'd say there's the potential for quite a few of the new B-757 FOs to become eligible for FEPP based on a denied HKG FO award. Mind you, all the guys and gals who are already in that seat won't be able to become eligible for FEPP because they are not eligible to bid during this Excess Posting.

I see high upside, low downside, but this involves very unpredictable group behavior dynamics.


I'll do it if you do it.

Ok, I'll do it if you do it.

OK, you go first.

No, you go first.

OK, let's go at the same time ... :eek:





.

Thanks. I spent more time examining the delivery schedule for the B-767s, shoulda looked more closely at the schedule for practice bids ... ooops, I mean practice bid, singular. I can't remember a posting with only one practice bid. (That's all that's required per the CBA, I just don't recall them doing it.)



I don't keep score on the disagreements. We're here to help each other out, just like you did for me.


Except for LAG ... I keep score on him ...

I keed, I keed ... :D






.

TonyC, et al... You mentioned a 2 year seat freeze if you deny an FDA after being awarded it. I see in the CBA where it mentions that, but it also mentions that the company can then excess you from that seat (your current seat prior to bid) at their discretion (more or less paraphrasing, but that's what I gathered). Do you have any other reference supporting this? A fairly junior guy utilizing this "technique" could totally get hosed for two years, no?

Not sure I would call their bluff this time for F/O Passover pay, from the chairman:

"The “Company has indicated” to ALPA they plan to place a “cap” on the following crew positions awards (evidenced in the Practice Bid #1 result):

• 25 HKG Captain positions
• 5 CGN Captain positions
• No cap on FDA First Officer positions"

The good news (from the company perspective) is this time next year they will be in excellent position to excess from the FDAs and finally fix this passover problem.

Does it surprise you that the chairman and the scheduling committee would take the side of The Company regarding bidding for FEPP?
The Chairman had an opportunity to raise serious objections about the uncertainties posed and the angst created by the lack of unambiguous details for bidding. The Chairman had an opportunity to condemn the "truthiness" of the VP of Flight Ops' statement that "Programming logic cannot currently manage vacancies and excesses in one bid, so we need to run separate vacancy and excess bids." Postings 08-01 and 08-02 managed vacancies and excesses in one bid, and we haven't changed the bidding rules since then.

In fact, our CBA addresses the procedure for processing both in the same posting:

CBA §24.C. Bid Award ProcedureConducting the Excess part of the Posting prior to the Vacancy part of the Posting is a violation of the intent of this section of out CBA.

But defending our CBA might be too confrontational.

(Is this the same Company that claims the ability to program PIBS?!?!)

The Chairman had an opportunity to point out that the "overlap" of an Excess Posting and the subsequent Vacancy Posting is a sham. A Vacancy Posting is supposed to be open for a minimum of 14 days for permanent vacancies or excesses. This time allows everyone an opportunity to examine the options, make decisions, and adjust their standing bid. We won't know the results of the 13-03 Excess Bid until well after Monday, April 29, at 0900 Memphis time. We won't likely see the results until Monday afternoon, at which point there will be less than 7 days until the Vacancy Posting 13-04 closes. Those 7 days do not afford the same time the CBA requires to evaluate one's choices and submit Standing Bids to participate in Posting 13-04. We'll have pilots who are on trips for that entire period of time -- I guess we'll have to hope they carry their personal laptops to conduct Company business.

Once 13-03 closes, The Company has up to 10 days to publish the training letter. That's 3 days after 13-04 closes! We may be asked to make choices about 13-04 before we even know when our excess training is scheduled. UNSATISFACTORY!

But, let's not mention any of that -- that would be confrontational.

Instead, let's dig up a quote from a TV show that went off the air 16 years ago and do The Company's bidding for them.

What's so confrontational about, "KNOW YOUR CONTRACT!"






.

If the company fills secondaries on bid 13-04, will they go to training before or after 13-03 excesses?

If a 727 FO gets excessed from 757 on 13-03 and then bids 777 on bid 13-04 and they fill secondaries, will he go to the very end of the 777 training letter?

you would most likely go to the training that gets you in the school house the quickest. They have the option to train you in the first award or skip to the subsequent award.

Nothing the company and the association due in concert concerning the FDAs surprises me. It started with the 20 minutes site visit prior to LOA 1 and has only gotten more bizarre since. That said I wouldn't bid any FDA seat unless I was willing to go or get awarded and then turn it down.

TonyC, if you think there is a CBA violation you should file a grievance.

I think the Union can give advice, that advice does not appear to be reflective of protecting the Company rather it looks directed at the individual Union Member to consider their options as a part of knowing your CBA. So it is a lose lose for the Union, you can't say bid for FEPP it will work out just fine and apparently you can't give cautionary words of advice either.

If you were Chair, other than tongue lash the Company, what would your official advice be to pilots contemplating FDA bids? Mum or what ?