Posting 13-03 is out.. Let the Excesses begin
 

Here we go again.

Lots of -1's

and -35's....

Wow, I didn't see the excess off the 777 coming. I mean, really?

The -1's aren't really excesses in the same sense as the 727 or Airbus and MD FOs. The -1's are there to prevent those fleet's manning levels from growing as the excessed pilots move into other fleets.

Interesting....

Agree not the same sense as the 727.. but if you are just holding on to the bottom of the seniority list in your seat.. Chances are you are going to get flushed off the bottom as the airline as a whole absorbs the 727 folks.

13-04 will be interesting as it will create vacancies that will have a somewhat mitigating effect on the excesses.

gonna be an interesting few weeks.

Oh yeah, if you're clinging to the bottom, it's not good news that they figured out to use that -1 a couple of years ago.

I know I read it. But now I can't find it. It was an FCIF wasn't it?

.....nevermind. Found it again.

I wonder how many guys who will soon find themselves rolled out of widebodies into the 757 voted yes on the recent LOA.

numbers for the outsiders looking in?

Utilizing my caveman math, and trying to figure out who on the panel is over 65 and/or not going to be staying, I came up with a total of about 300 pilot slots gone if you don't count the SO's who are not eligible to fly anything else.

The fleet plan calls for only 2 aircraft gone total over the next year - though the SO seats are ALL going so that skews it down a bit.

I'm guessing the vacancy bid will be about 250 seats total. You can probably figure out which planes will get them...

I'm a slow learner ... maybe one of you smart computer geeks can explain this one? The 'Excess Posting' published today says ...

Programming logic cannot currently manage vacancies and excesses in one bid, so we need to run separate vacancy and excess bids. A second bid, Posting 13-04, will be published the third week in April offering vacancies associated with the introduction of the B767.

I understand that the economy isn't great and we all want (need?) a proactive company that is able to adapt to changing times. I don't believe there is anything sinister in their proposed downsizing. Can anyone explain why our (legitimately) high tech company can't figure out how to manage a single bid that takes aircraft going away and new arriving aircraft all on the same bid!*? :eek::eek::eek: A High School kid could write the program.

It will be interesting to hear what ALPA thinks.

Probably no hiring for one or two years.

During the first Hub Turn meeting after the 767 LOA came out, that was sort of addressed. The quick and dirty is that the company has not invested in its IT stuff lately, especially for internal use. Therefore, we are seeing issues like this, and is one of the problems for real time trip trading. The technology they use is just too old and maxed out.

Not acceptable to ALPA, but that's the issue for the company.

And why have we been hiring for two years?

Only so much you can do with Commodore 64's and TRS-80's. :p

not looking for a job, was more interested in the number of displacements, etc. thanks.

There must be some advantage to 2 separate bids? Union e-mail didn't address it directly.

The programmers are busy creating PIBS.






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Am I missing something or couldn't every non-widebody Captain with a seniority greater than 3558 (about a Mar05 hire I think) could bit HKG Captain, not get awarded it and receive FEPP for most likely a LONG time. By the two published lists of FEPP there were over 100 pilots (and there were only 2 published lists but there actually more people than that) getting it. From a quick scan of the most senior guys, I don't show any having been forced to HKG. TonyC or HKGFlyer can probably answer that better. So let's say that's about 1000 guys eligible that could all big and get it. Unless you're in that top 50 or so guys I can't see how you would have any chance of actually having to go. Just sit in your seat and take the pay.

On the other had it's very possible that the company, after seeing how much pop this re-alignment would cost them, may decide not to execute the excess bid. I believe FEPP says 8 pilots a month - so a year from now 100 guys would be getting it. 100 more guys, at an average cost around $50,000/pilot that's a cost of $5,000,000 for every 100 guys. So say 1000 do it, that's $50million per year it costs the company.

Hey it's just business - it's just the contract - we all went Fedex to succeed but they have to live within the confines of the contract just like we do.

What am I missing? TonyC?

I bid for FEPP when I was excessed from the left seat of the MD-11 the last time around, and I'm looking at bidding for FEPP again. I lost the bet last time; what are the odds of losing it twice? :eek:

Seriously, what you're missing is a lot of names of pilots who were awarded FEPP "virtual training" dates who are not listed on the two "published" lists. There was at least one more bid with FEPP awards.

Several of the Captains who have gone to HKG lately were obligated due to the FEPP option. I don't want to mention names, but I can say it has been happening very recently.

But, you're right -- if everyone senior to the most junior Hong Kong Captain were to bid for FEPP, there would be an awful lot of people eligible for FEPP. And then I feel like there would be another settlement agreement describing a new process that provides relief to The Company and it wouldn't work out like we think it should work out.

Certainly lots of questions to be answered here.






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How does this excess bid compare with the one a few years ago. The one where all the new hires in ANC got booted out? (2008?)
(If I understand correctly, that excess was associated with Age 65 change.)

And although ANC shows "just" -15 in the FO seat, depending on how everything ripples through the system there could be many more than that spit out the bottom of the ANC MD-11 list, correct?

And yes...I've been reading everything put out on this and the contract. Thanks for that suggestion. :)

Yes there could be many more spit out of the bottom of ANC but I sort of doubt it - it would depend on how many of the MEM guys are willing to commute or move to ANC. I could see many more than 35 guys leaving MEM-11 FO but ANC I think is a bit different since it's been harder and harder to commute but we have some strange folks here.

TonyC - yeah I figure with guys around the 2000-3000 seniority it's a bit of a gamble but there are several guys on the published FEPP lists higher than 3000 that will have to go first and because they've already been getting FEPP for so long, are far more likely to accept an awarded position to HKG CA. Now how about the 3000-4200 guys that could bid this - can't think of a logical reason why not bid it? Worst case you take the extra money and put it in a savings account just in case you may have to pay it back. If you get awarded HKG CA, simply turn it down and pay back the money, no harm no foul. If down the line you end up activating to a different Widebody position you just made yourself several hundred thousand dollars.

That caboose in the Hong Kong left seat should get free beers....

Excess posting 09-02, the big one, had

12 ANC-11 CA
56 ANC-11 FO
11 MEM-11 FO
91 MEM-30 CA
84 MEM-30 FO

much bigger

Actually, if you add the slots going away on the 727, it's about the same number.

How many captains/FOs with 20+ years of experience are going to upgrade vice retire? How many guys flying from SBN and ROA for years want to do 777 ops around the world? Gonna be some fun practice bids. One of the last bastions of "old school" just got rocked. It will be interesting to see where those crews decide to go... I figure 75% will pick 757/A300 with similar trips, but there may be some that use this at a catalyst to try something new.

Let's not forget there will be vacancy bid following this. The good news is there will not be a single guy who is sitting sideways when these bids are over. That wasn't the case in 08/09. Hope nobody gets burned out of a seat they currently like, but after all the chaos of the last 5 years you do have to know if you are bottom 10% in any seat it doesn't always mean you can stay there forever. My impression was in the 90s and until recently, once you got a seat at FDX it was pretty much yours to keep. It might be at 99%, and you were on A reserve, but it was yours. After the last few years it is apparent that we look more like the legacies when it comes to up and down displacements. I haven't heard anyone here say "I won't bid that until I can hold it at 60%...." since about 2007. Interesting times...

The last excess for ANC was -1 -- quite a few more than that left.

It would also depend on how many more committee volunteers are willing to bid it and use trip removal to avoid going there very often.







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TonyC,

When you excessed from the MD-11C seat and bid HKG-300C did your remain on captain widebody pay the entire time? It looks like you would go down to first officer pay until your FEPP virtual training activation date. Am I correct?

How close are you to going to Hong Kong now?






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I agree. That guy has made a lot of people a lot of extra money. He should not have to buy a beer the rest of his career.

But remember HKG was going to go senior according to our previous union leadership.

oops you're right - probably bigger really

You are correct. Wide-body FO pay began when I was activated in the right seat of the A300, and my virtual training date was about 18 months later. A secondary award on a subsequent B-777 vacancy posting resulted in an actual training date about 6 months prior to the virtual training date. I received no FEPP.






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Not too many, though. We want him to stay healthy. :)






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And Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her back yard.


DW said that the STVs would go senior.






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Tony,

I guess 15-30 guys are ahead of me on FEPP list. However, next vacancy bid, 15-29 of them "might" hold WB captain somewhere else so I pretty much plan on being #1. If you bid it--that's how you have to plan. Then again, 100 guys might bid for FEPP that are senior to me on this bid, so who knows. I check on round trip ticket prices to HKG about every 2-3 months on Delta and expedia, and like the guys in front of me who got tagged I'm ready to go tomorrow if required.

Bid what you want, be ready to face the music.

Understand you dig at the guys who bid ANC, but honestly--have you seen how much INTL flying is left in the MEM bid back? We got guys hired 5 years after me that can DH to Paris from ANC, or DH to MEM and go HNL/SYD, and I cannot hold VCP or SJU in our MEM bidpack. I think some of the flight to ANC has been from the guys who commute anyway and want to fly some INTL. I look at my travel pix from 3-4 years ago and I saw Penang, Hong Kong, Cologne, Milan, etc. These days I see SLC (nice), OAK (nice), but it ain't the same. I think some guys bid it because a little longer flight to work is worth the rewards. Its ALL a great job, but its not the magic carpet tour bus it was a while back. And--sounds like it will get worse before it gets better. I don't want to do IND turns for a career--I want to see the world. I think some of the ANC guys feel the same, but I'll let then chime in for themselves.

Edit: I think FEPP info, including pilot emp numbers, is on the ALPA site on grievance page. Guys can do their own research and make their own decisions, but probably better to look at source docs instead of "some guy on APC said...."

The system form discussion is only relevant if the pilot actually flies the trips. I was referring to people who bid it but never, or rarely, go (except to the semi-annual Sim visit). Being able to do committee work from home makes it easier still.



The last time I looked, only two of the lists were posted, and I know there was at least one more.


But you're correct, it needs research. For instance, if you are indeed #1, and another pilot senior to you bids for FEPP, and one seat is actually awarded, who goes? The more senior pilot, or the pilot who was awarded on the earlier posting? As you know, virtual training dates were in order of postings first, then seniority within postings combined with Bid to Relieve and Bid to be Excessed choices. That's why somebody junior (like you) could receive FEPP long before somebody less junior (like me) encountered a bid to trigger FEPP eligibility. If the actual training dates go like virtual training dates, it might not matter how many more people bid it behind you.

But I honestly don't know how they'll do it.


Like you said, interesting times ...







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Tony
Do not make him think too hard he went to Auburn! :D

Not to mention himself! "Bid what you want, not what you think you can hold" really payed off for him.

In an effort to eliminate FEPP, why doesn't the bid include (-1) on HKG Captain seat?

I don't think he has earned any extra, he has earned every penny he has gotten. :)